Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    At this point I fear you are disagreeing with his religion.
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The network itself consists of neurons and synapses, all having microtubules at its heart, doing the processing and generating the emergent conscious experience. It is established science that single cells already experience and respond to external and internal stimuli via microtubule processing and motor functions.

    How Many Cells Are in Your Body? Probably More Than You Think!
    https://handling-solutions.eppendor...re-in-your-body-probably-more-than-you-think/

    Now imagine blocks of these cells responding in concert to external stimuli and simultaneously processing internal sensory data streams.

    As ex-musician, I was always intrigued by the physical and emotional responses to sound harmonics of complex chordal structures and chronologies. An auditory response experience, generated in the body and the brain.

    The brain's mirror neural network allows us to experience the electrochemical responses experienced by another person from observed body language. These are cognitive responses and require memory of prior experiential events against which the observation is compared.

    If we apply a similarly evolved experiential response to electrochemical streams coursing through trillions of human neurons, why should the brain not be able to respond to that?

    Another "hard fact" is that we have an enormous capacity for storing memories, not only permanent memories in the brain but also short memories in individual cells.

    The slime mold (another complex single-celled organism) has the ability to remember and respond to time intervals . Now how does it do that? Active microtubules have short memories. Fixed microtubules (as in pyramidal neurons) have long term memories.

    Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon of complex networks processing sensory data.
    Another "hard fact" is that we can actually measure electric activity in the brain and we are learning to associate activity in certain areas of the brain as related to experiential responses.

    We have mapped the response systems of single cells, We have established that single cells are able to communicate via inter-species' and intra-species' quorum sensing.
    We have now begun mapping the electrochemical communication and response systems of the human body and the brain.

    There are two kinds of "belief".
    a) Belief based on faith without any proof in the existence of an invisible creator agency.
    b) And belief in that for which there is demonstrable physical and functional proof.

    Tegmark made the irrefutable argument that everything necessary for consciousness is already present in all conscious organisms. I believe he is right and that microtubules played a major part in the evolution of that emergent phenomenon.

    OTOH, if you believe that there is an undefined magical external ingredient to consciousness, then it is you who harbors a "false" belief, a religion. I don't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This may be of interest to the subject;


    Note that anesthetics bind directly to microtubules and cause unconsciousness while leaving brain function unimpaired.

    If that does not suggest a direct connection between microtubules and consciousness, I can't begin to imagine a better argument.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    And do not forget, from another thread

    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/is...-in-microtubules.161187/page-116#post-3692151

    Post number 174 in that thread

    Stuart Hameroff who as as noted above is the world's leading authority on microtubules and is enamored of microtubules being involved in consciousness

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  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, Hameroff is a practicing anesthesiologist and knows about microtubules, because:

    Note that anesthetics bind directly to microtubules and cause unconsciousness while leaving brain function unimpaired.

    If that does not suggest a direct connection between microtubules and consciousness, I can't begin to imagine a better argument.

    You can huff all you want, you can't blow this house down....

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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    2019 ? Just beginning the research. It was a simple dispute about microtubules being organelles and had nothing to do with what they do.

    Yazata said: ↑
    I should not have given up that easily. I have learned a thing or two since then. One is that microtubules are NOT organelles themselves but are made by organelles called MTOC (Microtubule Organizing Center)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule#
     
  10. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry it may be bit out of topic subject but still ask you for curicity.
    How consiousness match with the Suggestion feature in computers, dictonaries etc.?
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    GPT3? Yes, apparently the brain works in a similar manner.
    According to Anil Seth the brain (mind) compares incoming sensory data against stored data in memory and from that comparison makes a "best guess" of what the incoming data represents.

    He calls it a "controlled hallucination", an educated experience of reality as compared to an "uncontrolled hallucination", a distorted invented experience of reality.
    Perhaps we can make a comparison between conscious observation while awake and unconscious dreaming while asleep.
    If you haven't watched it yet, do see the short version of Anil Seth's lecture on Ted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  12. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks. Although it is beyond my understanding since quite complex for me, I shall try to grasp sonething. I did not followed this thread as yet.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Just a little update on GPT3 AI as compared to human conscious awareness.



    and "Impossible questions"



    This ongoing conversation (currently 50) between Leta and Dr. Alan D. Thompson is becoming more and more fascinating. It is clear that this AI has a far superior intelligence than the average computer or even Alexa type intelligences.

    With Leta it is possible to have serious discussions about the world and the human condition.
    If this were all preprogrammed it would be remarkable, but Leta has the ability to spontaneously formulate in-depth contextual answers. Occasionally, there are some telltale signs of misinterpreting the question, but this happens with humans also.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Watch the Anil Seth lecture a few times. His conversational style hides several profound concepts. I have watched it about ten times and each time something new presents from his narrative. I have also seen a much longer and more formal lecture by Seth, but that merely deals with the actual science rather than the conceptual principles.

    Then when you are familiar with the concept of consciousness, watch Bonnie Bassler's Ted lecture on bacterial communication, which takes the science of quorum sensing and response leading consciousness back to its very beginning. The rest is a result of billions of years of evolution via natural selection creating the slow process of refined adaption and sensitivity of sensory abilities in all Eukaryotic organisms, which have one common dynamical cellular denominator and that is the microtubule and its related filaments that give form to complex cellular organization and are able to communicate intra-cellular and inter-cellular data via the cytoskeleton, cytoplasm, and the entire neuronal system.

    IMO, the evidence is overwhelming and leads to the conclusion that microtubules are the best candidate for being fundamentally involved in the emergence of conscious awareness of the data processes and the response system based on the brain's best guess of the external environment and its potential for dangers as well as opportunities.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    There is no better candidate!!! I am still waiting for a better example of "emergent" consciousness. There isn't any !!! None of the other discussions address the physics that must be involved. Consciousness is not caused by a metaphysical process. There is a physical underpinning and all conscious organisms have a single cellular communication mechanism (cytoskeleton) in common, i.e. microtubules.
    How this can escape everyone's attention is a complete mystery to me. There is no better candidate!

    I will let Roger Penrose speak for me. I believe he has a somewhat more authoritative voice than mine.

    This video is fundamental to recognizing the role microtubules play in the "emergent phenomenon" of conscious awareness. It contains a direct quote of Penrose's discovery of the Paramecium and the amazing rudimentary sensory abilities this single-celled organism possesses.

    http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/ind...uk.org.uk/mag/artnov14/paramecium-engima.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    In furtherance of microtubule catastrophe associated with Alzheimer's;

    https://cildata.crbs.ucsd.edu/media/videos/50517/50517_web.mp4

    Neuronal Fibrillar Cytoskeleton and Endomembrane System Organization in Alzheimer’s Disease
    Abstract

    https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4613-1657-2_6

    Microtubule-associated protein tau (tau) is a major antigenic component of paired helical filaments in Alzheimer disease
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2424016/
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And our research technology is beginning to yield evidence of the most amazing processes taking place in the cellular cytoskeleton .

    This from; The Cell Image Library.
    http://cellimagelibrary.org/home

    A link well-deserving of a place in anyone's reference library!

    Electron microscopy

    Featured Image
    https://cildata.crbs.ucsd.edu/media/videos/7199/7199_web.mp4

    For a detailed blueprint of a cell, this presents a clear user accessible illustration.

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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Transferrred from ; http://sciforums.com/threads/do-you...ver-feel-emotions.162382/page-40#post-3694807
    Of course they do. ALL Eukaryotic organisms have microtubules in common.

    Form and function of algae
    https://www.britannica.com/science/algae/Form-and-function-of-algae
     
  19. river

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  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You know a little more than you did before.....

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  21. river

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    For you now what , no mathematics here as the essence of the microtubules .
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Lots of electrochemistry and I believe that electrochemical functions are mathematical in essence.
     
  23. river

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    Electrochemical guided by Lifes Energy , is the essence of the mathematics . Mathematics can not create any thing physical in and of its self .
     
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