Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nerves deliver information to each other via diffusion.
    Once again you read a report and didn't understand it.

    P63 is one of the motor proteins that the endoplasmic reticulum uses to move stuff along. From the report: "a motor protein that binds to microtubules provides motility and a cargo protein that anchors the motor molecule to the membrane." This describes a motor protein that allows the endoplasmic reticulum to move microtubules along, and an "anchor" protein that keeps the assembly anchored to the ER.

    In other words the microtubule is the thing being moved, not the thing doing the transporting. Think of the ER as the road, the motor proteins as the truck and the microtubules as lumber they are moving somewhere else in the cell.
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No they don't. Nerves deliver information via active (not passive) synaptic exchange. In that process any diffusion is undesirable because any loss in informational content degrades the "specific" information.

    In fact some functional neural information is "amplified" by "neurotransmitters" during the synaptic exchange.

    Section 21.4 Neurotransmitters, Synapses, and Impulse Transmission
    Go to: Many Small Molecules Transmit Impulses at Chemical Synapses
    I know there is diffusion across synapses, but that is not passive diffusion as in "cell membranes".
    That is like saying electricity is diffused across a lightswitch. Technically correct but nowhere near the concept of diffusing random excess static electricity into the "ground".

    Stages in neurotransmission at the synapse
    Main article: Chemical synapse
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmission#
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020 at 4:19 AM
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  5. river

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    To your last statement ;

    Agreed .

    What though are these , small molecules ?
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Consciousness is not to be FOUND anywhere it is a PROCESS

    If someone is unconscious nobody goes looking around for the unconscious persons conscious

    Not even inside the body. If they go inside the body the look for the cause which stopped the PROCESS of CONSCIOUSNESS

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  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    A neuron fires. It releases neurotransmitters. They drift via diffusion through the synapse to the next nerve. From Neuroscience for Kids:

    "The neurotransmitter molecules then diffuse across the synaptic cleft where they can bind with receptor sites on the postsynaptic ending to influence the electrical response in the postsynaptic neuron." https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html

    For God's sake, take a high school biology course. You will avoid looking so f'ing stupid all the time.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. It is an emergent sensory experience.
    During an operation anesthesia separates the conscious person from the sub-conscious homeostatic control mechanism of the person.
    Anil Seth: "Anesthesia turns a person into an object (vegetative state) and back into a person".
    They know that Microtubule catastrophe is at least partly responsible for Alzheimers disease (a loss of personhood), for one. We know that MT are associated with consciousness, which "resides in the brain".
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,718
    Sorry, you are confusing "neurotransmitters" with "information" as I explained to you.
    Better do some more reading on "neurotransmitters".

    It is the neurotransmitters which must be diffused after enabling the transmission of information, but are NOT part of the transmitted information.
    Just like static electricity is diffused into ground after transmission of electricity.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Neurotransmitters are the carriers that transmit information between nerves.
    No it's not like that at all. Electrons don't "get deactivated" like neurotransmitters do.

    I guess you need a high school physics course too.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,718
    This may clarify:
    The Synapse

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    Neurons have specialized projections called dendrites and axons. Dendrites bring information to the cell body and axons take information away from the cell body.

    Electrical Trigger for Neurotransmission

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    For communication between neurons to occur, an electrical impulse must travel down an axon to the synaptic terminal.

    Neurotransmitter Mobilization and Release

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    Diffusion of Neurotransmitters Across the Synaptic Cleft


    The postsynaptic ending is a dendrite

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    (axodendritic synapse), but synapses can occur on axons (axoaxonic synapse) and cell bodies (axosomatic synapse).
    Types of Synapses

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    p.s.

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    "You are your synapses. They are who you are."
    --- Joseph LeDoux, 2002 (in Synaptic Self)

    https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,718
    continued....

    Mechanism[edit]

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    Synaptic vesicles containing neurotransmitters
    See also: Neurotransmission
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter#

    Neurotransmitters themselves are not the information being transmitted. They make controlled transmission possible, after which they serve no further purpose.
    Does this clarify ?
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,718
    I didn't claim that. You made the claim that neurotransmitters are the information that is being transmitted via diffusion across synaptic receptors . That is an incorrect model. Now you are trying to weasel out from under.
     
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Anil Seth obviously not in the medical profession and while I sort of understand what is meant by that remark it could / should be better expressed

    Anesthesia turns a sentinent person into an non sentinent person and returns the non sentinent back to a sentinent person

    May well be the case but then you spoil it with
    immediately after agreeing
    wth
    The following post go back to talking about nuts, bolts and washers

    I'm short on internal coffee

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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, it is a process in, and an emergent product of the brain. Descartes "brain in a vat".
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    A little refresher , (new version)

    For a peek at microtubule function start @ 13:50

     
  18. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Hint 20 minutes probably to long

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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That's why I recommended to start at 13:50 into the demonstration. Did you miss that? I try to make it easy.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    ER manufacture information. There is only one ER in every cell . Hundreds of MTs transport information inside and between cells.
    The MT are the highways that transport and drop off information at their targeted locations.

    What are microtubules?
    -----------------------------------

    What do microtubules do in neurons?
    https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/1/microtubules.shtml
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 6:14 PM
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    14,718
    I think that was a perfect analogy.
    btw, Anil Seth is an accredited and acknowledged scientist in a recognized scientific context
    But a sentient brain IS the person. Remove the sentience and the person ceases to exist and only an organic shell in a vegetative state remains, an organic object.

    Recall Seth; "I recently had an operation and needed anesthesia. Then I woke up and had no experience at all of time passed. I could have been "gone" 5 minutes, 5 hours, 50 days, 50 years, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~."I simply wasn't there!"

    From personal experience I can testify to that "gap in sentience" and "loss of personhood", during anesthesia.

    The experience of "personhood" is produced by the self-referential brain processes. When the brain stops processing, the person ceases to exist, at least temporarily. Not dead, but only as a biological object, but no different from a vegetable.

    Again, Descartes' "Brain in a vat"......

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    p.s. we are not talking about "interoception" which is the subconscious control mechanism that "keeps the body alive", while the "person is gone".

    All living objects have controlled homeostasis, it's a common denominator in all living things.

    But that is only a quasi intelligence, not Experiential "Consciousness" or "Agency" ...

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020 at 7:21 PM
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Some background.

    Anil Seth on why our senses are fine-tuned for utility, not for ‘reality’;
    " It’s easy to mistake our conscious experience for an ongoing, accurate account of reality. After all, the information we recover from our senses is, of course, the only window we’ll ever have into the outside world. And for most people most of the time, our perception certainly feels real. But the notion that our senses capture an objective external reality can be dispelled by considering something as fundamental as colour, which can be culturally influenced and, even within a single culture, leave the population split between seeing the same picture of a dress as black-and-blue or white-and-gold."
    https://aeon.co/videos/anil-seth-on-why-our-senses-are-fine-tuned-for-utility-not-for-reality
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That's all there is for a brain.
    It is a little more complicated than that......

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    Perception is not about seeing truth, it is about survival and having offspring .....

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    Think about it. It makes perfect sense in context of evolutionary processes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020 at 10:45 AM

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