Is God good ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Thomas Cranmer, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Good and evil is everything.
     
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  3. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Nice picture

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    It shows how possible it is for animals not killing each other. Maybe they could live with no food forever again?
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That'll work for the lions for about 3 days.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Objectively, I can't agree with that . Only humans are aware of the difference between good and evil, but human are by no means necessary for nature to thrive without human morals. This does not mean nature has no moral code.
    It's moral code is survivability, regardless of morality.

    Nature has it's own morality, natural selection, which worked very well in the evolution of every living thing on earth including humans. The earth has gone through the most incredible natural disasters and is doing very well, thank you. It's the humans which may prove to be an evolutionary cul de sac, a dead end.

    However, I do agree humans need a moral code to survive as a species within the framework of natural selection. In spite of human moral laws we are already in a man-made extinction event from our own wanton moral disregard of natural laws in spite of our superficial human moral codes which are only obeyed by people who do not need human moral laws because they desire to live in harmony with nature and other humans to begin with.

    This is the ultimate true test of morality, surviving the process of natural selection and in spite of our human morals, it looks like we're going away folks! Pack your bags!!!

    Or if you want to equate God with natural morality, it looks like God is not pleased with us.
    From a spiritual perspective we may be looking at god's Wrath beginning to become explicated in earth's physical reality.

    Watched the weather channels lately?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  8. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    I hate the wind, what's your worse weather? raining and windy for me.
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Nature has no code - period

    Natural selection is not a code

    NO - more a legal framework

    natural laws = umm physics?

    harmony with nature = no such animal

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  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    +1 to Michael's entire post.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Deadly India Heat Wave Temperature Reaches 123 Degrees in Second-Driest Pre-Monsoon Spell in 65 Years

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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It does have order, no? That's a code by any name. A pattern.
    Of course it is. Natural selection is a probabilistic mathematical function.
    Yes, a codified legal moral code.
    Yes, universal constants which rule reality.
    Well, it's a matter of degree, no? For humans harmony with nature means something entirely different than harmony with nature for other organisms. When things flourish they are in harmony with their natural environment.
    Ever listened to the symphony of life on a summer evening in the forest? I have, and absorbing the sounds and rhythms in the chorus of forest love songs, each written in a little different language, at that time I felt in complete harmony with nature.

    OTOH, disharmony with nature always results in "Natural Selection", and removal of the individual from the population.

    The problem is that the entire human population is in disharmony with nature.

    (And here is where the metaphor of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge carries moral weight. We are on our way out of Paradise)

    Are we ready to deal with the consequences in human culling on a global scale as predicted by both scientific and biblical prophecies?

    p.s. see post #188 to get a glimpse of what is to come?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    W4U be like: "Of course it is. The territory is the map."
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What are you talking about? Natural Selection does not recognize territory, nor maps. It is a statistical accounting of mathematical survival probabilities in relationship to adaption (be in harmony) with one's environment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Correct NO

    It just IS, if order is seen = faces in clouds

    No rules in natural selection = no code

    Just a legal framework, aimed at providing a level playing field (nice thought but unattainable) with, generally, adverse consequences for those breaking the law

    It is possible to live a completely legal life, but looked at buy others as being totally immoral

    Hence the saying "It might be legal but it is not moral"

    Morals are laws you have when you don't have laws and exist in minds and not enforceable

    Don't think physics have any concept of rule

    I understand the meaning in everyday chatter but some language, to me, is tinted with my arch enemy, anthropomorphism

    I might be about how well (the degree) the orchestra is tuned, but I don't really buy it

    The orchestra is always in flux with musicians coming and going and even new instruments being constructed on the fly (give ½ point for that observation

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    )

    Que será, será
    Whatever will be, will be
    The future's not ours to see
    Que será, será

    Que Sera Sera https://g.co/kgs/V4rT1k

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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Global warming is a "face in the clouds"? I believe human observation has weather related data in some greater detail than "a face in the clouds"
    I wonder how 95% of all organisms that ever lived are now extinct and what patterns their extinctions followed. So far the earth has experienced five extinction events and we are currently in the sixth (man-made) extinction event.

    The statistics from many sources indicate a rate of disappearance which is directly connected to global climate changes and extinction events.
    Example: from prokaryote to eukaryote, due to change in global levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, and replaced by oxygen as energy source.
    I agree.
    I agree.
    I agree
    Correct, hence our Global Warming dilemma. All very humanly legal but hopelessly immoral on the scale of natural virtue. What is the earth supposed to when there is major artificial disturbance in its ecosystem, such as the release of billions of years of sequestered CO2 from oil and coal back into the atmosphere in the span of a few centuries.
    That's the wrong context. Physics are the explication of orderly values and functions in accordance to several mathematical constants. E = Mc^2 is a mathematical physical equation, regardless of any form of symbolic codification. It truly is that way.
    Again you are focusing on human perspectives. But human observations and perspectives are still reflections of that which already exists in a natural abstract form and potential. Potential is an expression of mathematical probability. The Universe needs not know any of this. It just functions that way, naturally, by the constant of Cause and Effect as well as the law of Necessity and Sufficiency.
    Example; a car able to run @ 100 mph. In the city where the speedlimit is 30 mph, car driving @ 30 mph retains the ability (has the potential) to drive @ 100 mph if the driver so desired. IOW. 70% of the car's ability remains latent potential until called upon from necessity.
    Yes you do. You listen to certain types of music and specific songs because the wave harmonics and maybe the lyrics agree with your internal standing wave.
    You have just summed up universal evolution in a nutshell.
    How many chemical experiment has the earth facilitated during its lifetime? Wait......
    Two trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion chemical experiments (2x10^54) resulting in our later discovery of almost all the chemical elements in the table of elements and via
    lexical statistics the number of minerals that can and have formed on earth.
    Note: lexical statistics are about information sharing.
    Indeed, a true probabilistic mathematical expression.
    What will be, will be defined by the universe's inherently mathematical physical potentials. The Implicate Order, (Bohm)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    = territory

    = map

    Once again, you mistake our mathematical model of the thing for the thing itself.

    It's almost like you're asserting that statistics, accounting, and probabilities are real things in nature.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    What you just don't seem to accept is that statistics, accounting, and symbolic representation are based on RW events.
    Probability does not belong in that list at all. It does not establish existence of any kind, but the odds of something becoming into existence. Nothing to do with map or terrain.

    Science is a record of how things DO function in reality. The human symbolism used is irrelevant as long as it effectively represents reality and its relative values and functions. E = Mc^2 represents a natural equation in reality.

    The mathematical model is a codified reflection of real natural events. It not that, then what?
    Approximation is close enough, what we see is an approximation to begin with and our senses are hopelessly inadequate for observation of extremely small or extremely large objects. This is why we use microscopes and telescopes to assist us in observation of reality and if we take a picture it is not a map but a 2D representation of reality.

    You cannot dismiss reality because humans have codified the way it functions.
    By that logic every human artifact is a map and we know nothing about reality (the terrain) at all? Bye bye science.

    Might as well use the bible as a map, no? It clearly maps out a terrain. Difference is that it cannot be mathematically codified and proven because it is an imaginary map and not based on the physical terrain in reality.

    This is how science can argue the flaws contained in the bible. Can't have it both ways.
    What elevates science above religion? Proof by mathematical maps and models, no?

    If I have two apples and I write down that I have (2 apples). I have the terrain and the map, no? Where is the map different from the terrain? Do the apples cease to exist when I remove the map? Would there be more apples, less apples, or just two apples as codified by my human symbolic representation?

    If I show a Lemur a plate with one apple and a plate with two apples it will always pick the plate with two apples.
    A monkey can count as well as a human, because it looks at the terrain and forms an internal map of "more of this" and "less of that'. Humans are just a little more detail oriented in actual count.

    A boy pushing his wooden model car makes purring noises, because without a motor the car could not move. He is representing a real world fact associated with moving cars.
    The boy added this necessary representation of reality to his imitation of a real world event. He added topography to the map. (p.s. I know the definition of topography)

    The point is, human representation is not required for the existence of reality. The representative maps and models provide proofs of the existence and evolution of reality and how that process works, and that is sufficient.

    By your logic, when we are wrong sometimes, if it's just a map, why bother to change the map at all if it has no relation to reality, it is merely another incorrect detail in the model. no? It isn't reality so why bother?

    This is so stupid. People spent lifetimes recording the occurrence of natural values and functions (dynamical cause and effect) in reality and drawing conclusions from the data. Then we pooh pooh the representative model as being just a human map which does not really represent or model reality, because humans are really stupid and no one knows what the mathematical and physical symbolisms represent to begin with.

    That's tantamount to committing intellectual suicide (murder), and wholly unnecessary at that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Of course they are. Of course I get that.

    Look. The 4-letter word "rock" is based on there being real rocks.

    But it does not follow that the 4-letter word "rock" is "part of nature".

    Because we model the world with mathematical tools of statistics, accounting and probability does not therefore mean those things are literally part of nature.


    Agree.

    Agree.

    But then you go on to say
    "Natural selection is a probabilistic mathematical function."
    and
    "It is a statistical accounting of mathematical survival probabilities in relationship to adaption (be in harmony) with one's environment."

    When what you should have said was
    "Natural selection can be described by a probabilistic mathematical function."
    and
    "It can be described by a statistical accounting of mathematical survival probabilities in relationship to adaption (be in harmony) with one's environment."
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But the rock as a natural object IS. It has all the properties of what we call a "rock".
    A human symbolic word is not part of nature. What the terms symbolize are the actual observable and measurable occurrences that ARE physically observable or predictable as objective physical phenomena which may or may not become expressed in reality.
    And it IS in its own right.
    "It is a statistical accounting of mathematical survival probabilities in relationship to adaption (be in harmony) with one's environment." [/quote] yes, if there are 200 of something and half of them are destroyed then there are only 100 left (half of the original numbers). It makes no difference if the universe knows this or not. It is just a fact, as counted and codified by humans. Six of one in one language = Half a dozen in another language. The language changes, the relative mathematical "values" do not.
    Yes and if the description is accurate enough it describes the natural functions which ARE in fact observable.
    If I am looking at the terrain, do I need a map or can I draw a mapwith an arrow pointing North. Nature doesnt know what North is, it just has the physical terrain in a specific place, which we have symbolized as North.

    The events occurring within the universal spacetime are dynamic in essence. Moreover they are dynamic in very specific ways which we can symbolize. The symbols are never part of the events, but they do describe the events as they become expressed in reality, which allows us to identify and Understand the causes and functional effects in reality.

    The symbolic representation of the elements H and O are not part of nature. But the string H2O in liquid form can be symbolically representative of water, unless you want to posit that the universe has no idea what the word "water" or "H2O" means, but the fact remains that chemically water IS composed of two hydrogen and one oxygen atom and exists as water in that pattern quite independently from any human identification or codification.

    The point is that the physical stuff in the universe has its own communication language, as chemicals and bacteria communicate via "quorum sensing" using purely unconscious chemical signalling.

    You reject the notion that chemical and physical interactions are forms of communication. Nature just uses generic potential values and functions, somewhat like we use algebra to describe a function. The physical part of nature could not function without specific (relative) values and dynamic potentials.

    My position is that any language which communicates information (consciously or not) is by definition of a mathematical nature. Chaos has no language, however communication languages emerge from chaos in the formation of patterns in accordance to mathematically deterministic dynamic causalities and effects. i.e. generic values and interactive information sharing (functions).
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Correct this time.

    (The mathematical tools of stats, accounting and probability) describe nature.


    What you said before, twice, is:
    (The mathematical tools of stats, accounting and probability) are nature.


    (I won't quote you again, unless you need me to.)
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I need you to direct me to the two posts where I said what you just attributed to me saying.
    If I did I was wrong, but I'm confident that I did not word it that way and you are incorrectly interpreting what I said.
     
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    *sigh*

    In post 197, you actually quoted me quoting you. Here are the original quotes. Again...

     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019

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