Is islam really the fastest growing religion?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by path, Mar 29, 2004.

  1. azhar_rahman Registered Member

    oh yea and can someone please give me a country present that practices islam and promotes and practices islam
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. azhar_rahman Registered Member

    sorry i meant practices both slavery and islam
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. Thersites Registered Senior Member

    In practise, Sudan and Mauretania. By all accounts, several other African countries too.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. azhar_rahman Registered Member

    exactly and wernt many of the powerful wealthy people of these countries responsible for helping the slave trade in america. didnt they help capture and sell slaves to america and britain. see these people aint muslim they are brutal selfish business men
  8. azhar_rahman Registered Member

    concerning slavery. heres a few quotes from non-muslim authors on the subject

    Annemarie Schimmel in "Islam: An Introduction" Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is highly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions. -- p. 67

    Roger Du Pasquier in "Unveiling Islam" To answer this question, it should first be remarked that Islam has tolerated slavery but has never approved of it, and that all its teachings and prescriptions in this regard lead to its alleviation as far as possible in the short term, and, in the longer term, conduce to its progressive suppression. To abolish it would have been impossible in a world in which it was generally practiced by all the states which bordered on the new Muslim empire, and in which the idea of challenging the principle itself had not occurred to anyone. It was the custom to enslave prisoners of war -- when these were not simply massacred -- and the Islamic state would have put itself at a grave disadvantage vis-a-vis its enemies had it not reciprocated to some extent. By guaranteeing them humane treatment, and various possibilities of subsequently releasing themselves, it ensured that a good number of combatants in the opposing armies preferred captivity at the hands of Muslims to death on the field of battle.

    It should be very clearly underlined that the slavery once practiced in the Muslim world cannot be compared to the form it had assumed -- for instance -- in the Roman Empire. Islamic legislation subjected slaveowners to a set of precise obligations, first among which was the slave's right to life, for, according to a hadith, 'Whoever kills his slave shall be killed by us'. In consequence, the murder of a slave was punished like that of a free man.

    There are many other hadiths which define Islam's true attitude in this regard. The Prophet said: 'Your slaves are your brethren; therefore whoever has a brother who depends upon him must feed and clothe him in the way he feeds and clothes himself; and should not impose upon him tasks which exceed his capacity; should you ask them to do such things, then you are obliged to help them.' The Sharia takes this injunction, among many others, into account when defining the responsibilities and duties of slaveholders.

    There is another teaching which enjoins respect for the human dignity of slaves: 'Let none of you say, "This man, or this woman, is my slave". He must rather say: "This is my man, and this my woman."' Putting into relief the provisional character of social ties and the authority exercised by slaveowners over their slaves, the Prophet said: 'It is true that God has made you their masters, but, had He so wished, He could equally well have made you their slaves.'

    To manumit a slave has always been regarded as one of the most meritorious of all acts, and many passages of the Qur'an recommend or even require it, particularly as a means of expiation for serious faults. Traditional legislation lays down the methods of voluntary liberation of slaves by their masters (itq), and there were very many Muslims who observed these, especially at the end of their lives, so as not to die and appear before God without having given full freedom to the human beings placed in their power during their earthly lives.

    Additionally, slaves had the ability to enfranchise themselves at their own initiative, without waiting passively for the goodwill of their masters: the procedure known as mukataba allowed them to buy their own freedom with sums which they saved from their work, and which the state frequently augmented with advances -- a measure which the slaveowner had no right to oppose. In contrast to the situation under Roman law, slaves were not deprived of the legal ability to exercise their rights and to appeal to a judge against their masters in all cases of illegal treatment.

    Besides domestic slavery, which was generally imbued with a patriarchal character, there also existed a form of military slavery, which was frequently employed by princes in need of recruits, especially for their personal guards. This situation had the effect of conferring an often considerable influence and power on men of servile condition or origin, and some of these became the founders of great and illustrious dynasties such as the Tulunids and Mamlukes of Egypt.

    The object of a prosperous commercial sector, which under the Abbasid Empire was often the speciality of non-Muslims, particularly Byzantine and Venetian Christians, and Jews, slavery gradually declined in importance until, at the beginning of the present century, it was confined to a few survivals which have now disappeared entirely. Thanks to the strict traditional controls which have always regulated the practice, it would be difficult to deny that social conditions were remarkably humane during the great periods of Muslim civilization, and that these, moreover, were in conformity with the 'egalitarian' spirit of Islam, which, in a hadith, teaches that 'the blackest of Abyssinians' is superior to most noble of Quraishites, if he has more faith. -- p. 104 to 107

    sorry to paste it and not provide a link. cos no1 bothers with links do they
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Nothing new AS WELL AS the final answer? Those two statments appear to me, to be, oxymoronic.

    "Islam, nothing new, offers final answer"

    Nope doesn't make sense.

    OK then, what were the Great Debates of humanity, can you give some examples? What were the "final answers" Islam supplied?
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    azhar_rahman, I read your diatribe. I agree that some slaves were treated kindly. I didn't say they weren't. And of course this isn't anything new. Some Greeks would sell THEMSELVES into "slavery". So yes it does depend on the situation.

    Of course this does nothing to explain why WITHIN the Islamic empire itself, Slavery was a thriving Instituion (and was so for well over a thousand years).

    Islamic slaver traders did a good business with the Amercias.

    And guess what - as such, they were sometimes selling Africans on to "infidels" as Slaves. And they went on slave-raids in Africa to gather those peoples. So they really didn't give two-cents about the people or their welfare. The last thing on their mind was "Hey by doing this we're going to eventually end slavery in the whole wide wonderful world". Give me a break.

    That's asinine.

    They were out to make money by selling people to the highest bidder. THAT'S how the market worked.

    The Highest Bidder.

    They did NOT always come as a result of a "war".

    Muslims, bought people and sold Slaves onto others.
    Muslims captured people by raiding viliages and sold them as Slaves.

    The Islamic Slave Markets were as horride as their Xian counterparts!!

    And up until most of the ME was conquored by the Euopeans, Slavery looked to remain a prominent and profitable Institution in the Islamic ME right on into the future.

    So History itself does not gel with your apologetics. Islam did absolutely nothing to halt this Institution. Sure within ONE THOUSAND years you're going to get all sorts of Slaves doing well. As was the case in many pre-Islamic ME countries as well as. But for the most part you get millions that had like like hell on earth.

    So Nothing changed with the advent of Islam in the ME. THAT says something.
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Try to remember these words when next you hear a fellow Muslim talk about the Xian Crusades.

    It'll be intersting for them to hear you to say: "No those people were not Xians, they were just brutal selfish business men."

    (As the crusades were really about breaking the control Muslims had on trade between India and China with Europe).

    If you interupt yout fellow Muslims (Imams included) to teach them this, then you can live with your above statment as a true answer. If not, then you'll know it was an apologetic and has no truth.
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    There appears to be a conundrum here? One must assume if the Innocent CHILDREM of slaves can become slaves that slavery will continue until you STOP slaves from having children? Islam doens't stop slaves from having children so we can assume slavery will continue FOREVER in Islam as long as slaves have children.

    Am I correct or did I miss something?

    Also, are you suggesting that Islam was supposed to expand by war? And that AFTER the conquest of the entire world that ONLY then slavery would end? THAT was what GOD had in mind? Killing and War as the means to end slavery?

    Yeah, just great. . . . I wonder is this one of those highly enlightened Islamic "final answers" surenderer was refering to?

    azhar_rahman, I am still waiting to hear what your thoughts on:

    1) the fact that honey was used from China to Roma as a medicine for thousands of years before Islam.

    2) the fact that Spain and Greece and India and Russia, all of whom where conquored by Islamic Muslims,(which according to you was their good luck as they went off to be sold as slaves!)

    Anyway, they ALL rid themselves of this highly enlightened religion called Islam? Why do you think that was the case?
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2005
  13. duendy Registered Senior Member

    See the irony.
    'Islam' MEANS "sumission"
    This means you are 'God's slaves
    So how then can your 'God' end slavery?
    you very BELIEf Is slavery.
    you are slaves to your 'God'!
  14. surenderer Registered Senior Member


    Are you just messing with me or are you serious? If me and you have a disagreement and we go to court to a judge doesnt he settle our dispute by giving a final judgement?how is that oxymoronic?


    Well the first that coms to mind is the stature of Jesus (pbuh) and his divinity but there are many more
  15. surenderer Registered Senior Member

    never mind :m:
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2005
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member


    It's oxymoronic to suggest something has nothing new to offer AND supplies all the answers. A judge would, by passing judgement, be in effect, offering something new to the case at hand.

    Sorry about this but, we're not on the same page, I'll try and clearify:

    I was talking more along the lines of universal morals, ethics, philosophy and the like. What is it that Islam has to say to humanity. What does it bring to the table?

    Your statment on Jesus is fine, but it is just that - a statement or a declaration. It really has no more value than that (other than causing strife between Xians, Jews and Muslims). There is no prompting of thought and no enlightment in ones own existance. It is a statment to be taken at face value and thats that.

    Let me put is another way, Druze state: "they are Muslims " that also state "Tariq al-Hakeem was the incarnation of God" neither of which offer much in terms of offering something new in terms of philosophical enlightenment. They are just statements to be taken at face value.

    I was thinking more along the lines of:

    1. Life means suffering.
    2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
    3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
    4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

    Yin Yang represents the balance of opposites in the universe. When they are equally present, all is calm. When one is outweighed by the other, there is confusion and disarray. The Yin and Yang are a model, an aid, they may allow each person to contemplate the state of his or her lives.

    Can you see the difference? These religous statments appear to prompt one to think and arrive at some sort of conclusion about his or hers life and meaning therein.

    Saying "Tariq al-Hakeem was the incarnation of God" or "Jesus was a prophet of God" or "Jesus was God" really offer little in terms of philisophical enlightenment.

    As, I assume you believe, Islam is the "Be All and End All" of Gods religious enlightment to man - I was hoping you could offer some of these God inspired precepts Islam has brought to man, enlightened principals and philosophies by which our lives will be enriched.

    (I was under the assumption that these sorts of questions were the whole point of Sciforums?)
  17. surenderer Registered Senior Member


    Remember that Muslims believe that The Bible,Torah etc.....were all originally the Creators words that have been mistranslated and corupted(sp) and the Koran clears this i guess in that way it is offering something new i apologize

    Well as any Muslim would disagree with this.....I dont see it as quite so "flip"....knowing that The basic source of all religious teachings, according to Islam, is the person of the prophet of God. A prophet of God is guided by revelation from God. He, in turn, delivers the revealed message to his followers.....this message is what all Muslims try to follow....Enlightenment comes from doing the Creators work

    Well one thing is that Islam teaches that there is a general tendency among us ( humans) to expect worldly benefits accruing from our faith in God and from submitting to His directives. That is not necessarily the case. It is not because God listens to our prayers and grants us what we desire that we should adore and worship Him or submit to His directives, but, merely, because He alone deserves all our adorations and reverence and all our worships and submissions.Most people dont understand this.....Islam also teaches that bad things will happen to us sometimes but life of this world is a comprehensive test for us. This test is a temporary phase in our lives. It starts with our mental maturity and ends at our death or mental incapacity. The basic target to be achieved during this testing phase is to cleanse and purify our hearts minds bodies and souls from all such things that can defile and corrupt them(alcohol gambling fornification etc....). The fortunate among us, who shall succeed in their efforts of cleansing and purification, shall be the ones ultimately successful; while those who defile and corrupt their hearts, minds, bodies and souls, shall face the consequences of their defilement and corruption. Immediately after this test is over, we shall be faced with the results of this test. These results shall not be temporary. They shall be eternal. The consequences of failing in this test shall be in the everlasting punishment; while that of success shall be in the shape of everlasting bliss in the life of paradise.Most people when bad happens to them say that"God has forsaken me" or "Why would God let this Happen to me" but the Koran says (interpetation of meaning):

    There are those who worship God from a threshold [of faith]. Thus they are content only if they are blessed with good, while if an ordeal befalls them they turn away [from faith]. They are the ones who are losers in this world as well as the hereafter. (Al-Hajj 22: 11)

    Doing right and trying to please the Creator is what any true Muslim should be trying to acheive in Life :m:
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Why is that so?

    Are you suggesting that "bad things happen because God is testing us" is the sort of "new" enlightenment that Islam is advancing? I'm not trying to be fatuous, but that does seem rather trite? I would suggest that many religions before Islam have held similar belief and as such there is nothing all that new in restating it.

    Again, pretty much every religon since the dawn of time have advocated this.

    Again, this could be a page out of almost any religion.

    I believe you'll find this line of reasoning started with the religion Zoroastrianism.

    Again, Surrender I'll ask - is there ANYTHING particular new and enlightening to Islam? If not, then why bother wasting God's time sending yet another prophet that has nothing noteworthy to say?

    If there is nothing new advanced and nothing particularly insightful - then it seems rather pointless doesn't it?

    In a nut shell - Bad things happen for a reason and you shall be judged accordingly.

    I'm asking - is there anything you've learned from Islam that is particularly insightful or is this just about it?
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member


    - I'll have to assume you agree that yes "the honey verse" from the Qur'an was just a rehash of thousands of years of practicle medicine concerning honey and it's use. Also the fact that, in some people, honey can kill shows that any advice advocating it's use without such warning is misguided.

    - Islam's promotion of the innocent children of Slaves to remain Slaves (thus making Slavery perpetual) is an unfortunate shortcoming of the religion. It would have been nice if Islam had banned Slavery as Evil from the outset - as other religions had (and I am sure that a God would not comprimise himself by allowing such an abhorant practice to be condoned in His name).

    - I'll take a guess at my own question: The reason why Islam was not taken up, and probably will never be, by Russian, Spanards, Greeks and many Hindu is a reflection of how Islam is both nationalist as well as religioous and as such it will always butt up against the national identites of those people whom are subjugate under it. (an example of this is the notion that Arabic is God's languge, according to my Muslim friend at least, I'm sure this type of talk lead the Turkish to relinquish it in favor of their own National language)

    PS: You may find this hard to believe but I once had a Baptist friend of mine say English was God's language - that's true too!
  20. surenderer Registered Senior Member


    Nope never said it was a matter of fact I told you that at 1st......but how many people know that? How many people lose faith because they think that the Creator hates them? or that the Creator is punishing them? While I would debate you on the fact that their was any religion before Islam (Islam teaches that Adam(pbuh) not Muhamaad(pbuh) was the 1st prophet) I am not saying this idea is new

    Well the problem here is that you are saying that Islam started with the Koran in 610 c.e. when the Prophet started having is revelations. Of course Islam teaches that Muhamaad(pbuh) isnt the only Prophet of Islam but the last so why are you starting there? Islam also teaches that the Creator has sent many Prophets to many people to teach them how to I dont deny that other religions had the same message as Islam.....they came from the same place

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Remember Islam means (submission to God's Will)] so anyone who does this and associates nobody or nothing to God is by defination a Muslim(one who submits)...As to why sending another Prophet First this promise was fulfilled through the progeny of Jacob (pbuh). In the progeny of Jacob (pbuh), God sent His prophets and messengers, reminding people of God's likes and dislikes and giving them His laws. The most significant revelation in this lineage was that granted to Moses (pbuh) - the Torah. The Torah comprised basically of God's laws. Those, who obediently followed this law in letter and spirit, were promised the eternal bliss of Paradise, while those, who ignored these laws were warned of severe punishment in the hereafter. After this God continually(sp?) revealed His message among the decendants of Jacob (pbuh) which reminded the followers of their duty towards their Lord. But as time passed Islam teaches that the followers of these laws started ignoring the spirit entailed in these laws, even though, apparently, they remained obedient to it. At this time, God sent a revelation through one of His prophets - Jesus (pbuh) - reminding people of the spirit entailed in these laws. Through this revelation, the people were reminded that following the law without regard to the spirit entailed in them was, in effect, a rejection of the law itself. So the Gospels concentrated on explaining the wisdom and the spirit entailed in the laws of Moses (pbuh). The Gospels were never meant to replace the laws of Moses (pbuh), but were, in fact, meant to supplement the laws with the explanation of their spirit. Thus, Jesus (pbuh) is reported to have said:

    Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction, but to make complete. (Matthew 5: 17)

    However, disregarding the strong reminder of the Christ that his teachings should not be perceived as an abolition of the Laws and the Torah, but as their completion, his followers turned their backs on the directives of the Torah and gave up adherence to them. Consequently, what was revealed by God to complement the existing laws and to clarify the spirit entailed in these laws, started taking shape as an independent religion. Predictably, for all practical purposes, the followers of this religion renounced the validity of the laws entailed in the Torah and undermined their importance, by relegating them to the position of a 'temporary phase'.Thus, from a Muslim perspective, the need of the revelation to Muhammad(through Ishmel's lineage) (pbuh) lies in the fact that the respective followers of the previous revelations had broken down the unified 'whole' of God's revelations into separate parts and a new revelation, which would once again present a comprehensive understanding of the unified 'whole' was required. The Qur'an, the revelation through Muhammad (pbuh) presented this unified view of God's revelation......I consider this new and insightful(but you may not)


    If you are asking me if I had some revelation that hit me like a brick over the Head then I would have to say no....I grew up a Christian and coverted/reverted to Islam because the questions I had with Christianity were answered in Islam......I guess Insightfullness is in the eye of the Beholder.....I'm sure another Muslim may have had a different experiance coming to Islam that would differ from mine :m:
  21. Thersites Registered Senior Member

    The Ottoman emperor Suleyman called himself "Slave of god and master of the world."
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I understand this argument, and I would assume you would also agree that EVERY religion claims this. That's how one SUPPLIMENTS an old religion with a new. First you have to destroy the old one by saying that it's been corrupted.

    Do you find it odd that the PURE Word of God has given you no insight or offered you nothing that you could say you found particularly enlightening? The ideas you made reference to are pretty much the average points found in ANY religion ANYWHERE.

    I think this lack of enlightenment is an answer to those questions on why slavery was never abolished and why Muslims never came close to reaching nirvana. THAT, to me, says something. And that's why I point to the fact that historically almost every non-Arabic people who lived under Islam rejected it.

    So lets move on:

    What do you think of the state of 'todays' Islam?

    Is it corrupt?

    Are there suppose to be different types of Muslims: Sunni, Shia, Druze, Sufism?

    Would you advocate one 'type' of Islam over the other?

    When was the first Qur'an formed and how was it formed? In what year and by whom?

    Is the Qur'an 'perfect'?

    Do you think that the fact that the Qur'an is used by some Muslims to justify killing other Muslims says something about the nature of the book itself?
  23. surenderer Registered Senior Member

    What is your religion Michael?

    What does it teach you?

    Has anyone ever killed in it's name?

    What does that teach you?

    are there bad people in your religion?

    is your religion perfect?

    Thanks for your response in's easy to try to keep people on defense to give the illusion that you are smart but I aint that dumb......sorry

Share This Page