Is it possible to believe in God, and be a darwinist at the same time?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    lol, okay. can you clarify what you mean by millions of years ago? I always like to ask first, instead of putting words into people's mouths.

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    there have been studies done tracing back through the Biblical lineage to Adam (the first human that God created, if you believe that Genesis is a literal translation) which spans roughly, a little over 6,000 years ago. And of course, no evolutionary process is indicated in the Bible, that took place to get man to where Adam 'began.' (following exclusively Genesis)

    I believe in the theory of evolution, yet with a Creator behind it.
    From this exchange, I gather you don't believe that--and that you feel Genesis is literal? But, if you do, just know, the lineage only dates back to Adam being created some 6000 years ago. This is important because we know, have proof, of a ''pre-adam'' man, so to speak. How can a believer explain that, while clinging to the literal, historical translation of Genesis? Just some food for thought.

    I don't firmly believe that Genesis is literal, but more metephorical.
    Check this out when you can; I'M NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR VIEW. But, you might find it interesting.

    Leon R. Kass (The Beginning of Wisdom: Reading Genesis)

    He is noted as saying..."We can learn most from the story [of Adam and Eve] by regarding it as a mythical yet realistic portrait of permanent truths about our humanity, rather than as a historical yet idealised portrait of a blissful existence we once enjoyed but lost."
     
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  3. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    @ arauca...more on this, that i found that is to the point above.


    Regarding Adam and Eve:

    Different scholars have calculated different dates for the creation of Adam and Eve, but they are all in the same range, a couple of hundred years either side of 4000BC.
    - 3895 BC (Dr Stephen E. Jones),
    - 4004 BC (Bishop Ussher, perhaps the best-known),
    - 4169 BC (Barry Setterfield)

    **I post all this IF you believe that Genesis is a literal translation of the origin of man. Just to give u some good for thought. **
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
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  5. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Necessity is the mother of invention. Maybe the apes didn't "need" to go to the moon and we did.

    (Actiually, the apes who had a need for a certain kind of creativity became us.)
     
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  7. arauca Banned Banned

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    If man does not protect the apes they will get wiped out of existence. So they really have the need to survive, but they don't know they are getting wiped out.
     
  8. arauca Banned Banned

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    Yes we can learn a lot from the bible .specially from the New Testament on how to tolerate each other , and how not to let our desires take over our life .
    What ever was in the beginning or how was made is our speculation . I believe God resided to make a robot and the robot is me and you . same is like a robotnik engineer he create the object and little by little makes improvement
    eventually he will perfect him so , the robot will want to take over . And that is the situation now between God and us
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Magical Realist,

    These subjects aren't world views. The theory of evolution as propose by Darwin (today neo-darwinism) is not a proven fact.

    jan.
     
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    billvon,

    The chimps ''controlled environment'' is one of being raised 100% in captivety, meaning it has no idea of it's natural habitat.
    Why is our world false?

    Oh! There can be a God alright. You just take away some of God's attributes and voila, darwinistic evolution becomes possible. But why darwinian evolution in the first place? To diminish God's attributes? It certainly seems that way. Once one accepts it as truth, God can becomes obsolete. At last! You are now intellectualy fulfilled (as an atheist) because now you have reason to not believe in God.

    Why is he?

    Can you figure it out?

    jan.
     
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    God's sovereignty is His independant authority over material nature.
    If God exists, there is no question of anything happening outside of, or inspite of His authority He is the sole, Supreme Controller.
    So if darwinistic ideas of evolution occur, it does so regardless of whether God authorises it or not which means God's role is diminished, or worse.

    jan.
     
  12. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    So is it that your issue is not that evolution occurs, but merely the mechanism by which it occurs?
    After all, you're saying that the theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin is not a proven fact... which is correct... but you're not going so far as to say that evolution itself is not a fact?
    If so, why does the fact of evolution not diminish God whereas you hold that the theories of evolution do?
     
  13. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Why would God's role be "diminished" in this sense?

    If He is the Creator, it stands to reason that He had "in mind" an evolutionary process. This is why I believe faith is a not too distant cousin of science.

    Curious what u mean there, jan.
     
  14. arauca Banned Banned

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  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    They might outlast the human race, you never know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    The dinosaurs got wiped out of existence. So what? All life gets wiped out of existence eventually, whether individual organisms or species or whole groups of species.
     
  17. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    As I said, Supreme Controller doesn't necessarily mean Supreme Micromanager. God doesn't have to move every spider's foot one mllimeter at a time. He can just aim it at a fly and put it on autopilot. Similarly, he can create a system in which chemicals spontaneously form life and lifeforms spontaneously evolve into other lifeforms. It isn't less sovereign; it's just less anal.
     
  18. arauca Banned Banned

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    We are in different era . God create human in his own image ( not physical image ) He will save some and some will perish.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    It is a controlled artificial environment, rather than a natural habitat.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Just as proven as the efficacy of Algebra.
     
  21. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Just to clarify the terminology, a "theory" and a "fact" are two different things. A theory is never a fact. A theory is an explanation of a fact or set of facts.

    The fact of evolution is indeed proven. Even creationists don't deny any more that evolution happens. They dispute the exlanation of how it works but they don't have a rational explanation of their own to replace it with. To repeat my earlier analogy, creationists don't deny that France exists but they disagree about where it is. They claim it's on the moon but they don't have anything to back up that claim. In fact, that claim is proven wrong.
     
  22. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    Jan Ardena

    Evolution is an observed fact, whether Darwin's explanation is valid or not. And Darwin proposed Natural Selection as the cause of the observed fact of evolution(that is Darwin's theory), that has not been falsified, it has only been added to. Proven? Nothing in life is ever proven outside of logic or math, and they are not about the real world but about stated premises. Darwin still stands, we've just found other, additional causes to add to Darwin's Natural Selection. Survival is still the criteria every evolutionary change is tested with, just like Darwin said.

    Oh, those pesky, unevidenced and batshit crazy ifs. The god you get from the Old Testament is a misogynist, psychopathic, control freak and petty tyrant I wouldn't want in my world, much less in my life. The god of Jesus is a loving Socialist and the god of the rest of the New Testament is a misogynist again(I think that was Paul's influence, he didn't like women at all). IE the god portrayed in the Bible reflected the society who invented him and the people in control of the religious apparatus of the time(a lot like today).

    That is an ignorant, self-imposed, false dichotomy. Too bad that evolution is true(yes the "Darwinistic" kind), you've ruled out the existence of your idea of god(I think that's a good thing, maybe you'll look for a more realistic one, one that DOESN'T have such a problem with reality). But which pool player is more awesome, the one who has to line up every shot, or the one who hits the cue ball once and sinks every ball? A god that can say "Let There Be Light" and the Big Bang and all that followed proceeded from those first principles is a much more awesome god than one who must fiddle with every zygote to achieve the same outcome(you). Your idea of god is really wimpy, unrealistic and quite incompetent.

    Actually, since evolution is not only possible, but HAS ALREADY happened(yes, "Darwinistic" evolution), according to your logic your god is already diminished, by you, by your ignorance of and inability to face reality, preferring instead an irrational world view that has only passing congruence with the real world.

    Grumpy

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  23. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    A child born with disability, disease and/or deformity is not capable of exercising free will.

    Why does God punish the innocent?
     

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