Judeo-Christian Bible--Proof, Divinely Inspired

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Alter2Ego, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    I don't see it as a matter of rationality, it's a matter of them being wrong. Simply wrong. It's like claiming 1+1=3, which is bad enough you'd think, but then he/she/it shouts about it for everyone to hear, happily displaying their stupidity.
    Well, I guess it takes all sorts.

    But unfortunately it's such a crucial issue to the question at hand: i.e. the notion that the bible is divinely inspired... which many of us think is an unsupported claim.
    Unsupportable? No, perhaps not. Just currently unsupported.

    If one can not even understand the meaning and implication of "unsupported" how on earth can one actually discuss anything sensibly with those who use the word?
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  3. Yazata Valued Senior Member


    What seems to me to be nonsensical is your idea that if somebody has no good reason for asserting the truth of a proposition X but asserts it anyway, then it's impossible for X to ever turn out to be true. That would render lucky guesses impossible, among other things. It contradicts human experience.

    What's wrong with what you've already posted? What's still missing is the reasoning that connects that material to the strange conclusion that you've drawn from it. Your conclusion appears to be a logical non-sequitur.

    Suit yourself. I'm not really interested in getting into a back-and-forth with you. But if you post what I believe is philosophical bullshit, I'll likely comment on it.

    I should probably add that it's ironic that when Sarkus tired of you, you accused him of running away. Now you're doing the same.
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    If I saw a spoon on the table, that spoon is "unsupported" by my hand.
    I then pick the spoon up and it is now "supported".
    According to Alter2Ego it would be impossible to pick the spoon up.
    He must be amazed why everything doesn't just fall down around him, given that at one stage everything was unsupported. Perhaps he thinks it's all just magic?
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  7. madethesame Banned Banned

    Indians already knew these divine knowledge, it is a fact.
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    These are not very specific claims. Everyone with a clear view of the horizon thought the Earth was a circle. Every sailor could guess that the Earth was spherical. Everyone with eyes can see the moon and stars and sun seem to hang on nothing.

    So, this being dismissed as evidence, what else? Well, a book that contains both the legend of the prophecy and the legend of the event that fulfilled it isn't valid evidence. By the way, the Muslims and Hindus make similar claims about their sacred texts, are they also correct?
  9. Alter2Ego Registered Member


    So you claim. When do you intend to present the forum with documentary evidence to that effect?

  10. Alter2Ego Registered Member


    Wrong. It was not until the 4th century BCE that a Greek--Aristotle, to be exact--theorized a 3D earth. The book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century BCE--400 years before Aristotle even existed--and Isaiah's description was of an earth viewed from far ABOVE. Keep in mind that at the time Isaiah gave that viewpoint position at Isaiah 40:22, humans were earthbound. His viewpoint description of earth was confirmed by 20th century astronauts, one of whom I will quote at a later time.

    QUESTION #1 to SPIDERGOAT: How could Isaiah have known that earth appears as a circle when viewed from outer space, considering that there were no space shuttles at that time in human history?

  11. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    He just answered your question. Anyone can look up at the moon and sun and see a "circle". No space shuttle required.
  12. Alter2Ego Registered Member


    The question was direct at Spidergoat. Hopefully, he knows the difference between viewing earth from above--at a time in history when humans were incapable of space flight and therefore could not have known that earth looks like a circle when viewed from outer space--as opposed to someone who is earthbound and has only a partial view of earth's horizon.

  13. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

    Evidence suggests otherwise (read Laertius Diogenes' "Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers").
    According to this it was actually ascribed to Pythagoras some 200 years before Aristotle, although there is some doubt as to whether it was actually Pythagoras or perhaps one of his pupils.
    But certainly a couple of hundred years or so before Aristotle.
    What Aristotle did was provide a coherent argument for the earth being spherical, rather than it being an otherwise unsupported hunch that Pythagoras and others had before him.
    There is no actual evidence that Isaiah wrote all, if indeed any of the Book of Isaiah.
    It was likely not all written in 8th Century BCE but rather that some was written perhaps 6th century BC or even more recently than that.
    The 6th century BC is when Pythagoras and his pupils were around, pushing the idea of a spherical earth.
    Are you suggesting that they had no confirmation of how the earth looked from above until astronauts circled the globe?
    It doesn't take actual observation of something to have sufficient information to know what it will look like.

    Such confirmation can be achieved through inference, deduction etc.
  14. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Anyone can see that Earth looks like a circle from outer space since the Moon looks like a circle from Earth.
  15. madethesame Banned Banned

  16. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    I agree with Baldeee.

    And there's the impressive Eratosthenes, who led an ancient crew of scientific investigators that accurately measured the circumference of the spherical Earth in the late 200's BCE.


    Again I agree. There's abundant evidence that Isaiah consists of writings by several authors, spliced together by later editors. I think that virtually all scholars accept that, apart from some die-hard evangelicals. (There's still controversy about how many strands of tradition went into it and about what changes the later editors made in earlier writings so that they would fit together better.) The final composition of the book of Isaiah as we have it today couldn't be any earlier than the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE, and might be later than that. It may date from after the return from captivity, from the period when the Hebrew canon was taking its final shape.

    In other words, it's roughly contemporary with the ancient Greeks. And with the Buddha in India and with Confucius in China. Historians sometimes call it 'the Axial age', because so many creative world-changing things were happening in so many places.

    But in a way, this is beside the point. The passage from Isaiah speaks of God being above the circle of the Earth. It's important to remember that a circle is not the same thing as a sphere. They are different geometrical figures. It isn't even clear what means to be 'above' a sphere.

    What's written in Isaiah is entirely consistent with generally accepted Middle Eastern cosmology during most of the first millenium BCE, that imagined the Earth as a flat disk with the dome of the sky above it. And indeed we find the passage in Isaiah talking about God spreading the heavens above the circle of the Earth like a tent.

    In other words, far from being evidence of some kind of miraculous revelation, what we see in Isaiah is an example of the unknown ancient Hebrew author expressing the common "knowledge" of the time, a view of the shape of things that the Hebrews shared with most of the people around them.

    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  17. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Concerning his birth Verse Prophesied and Verse Fulfilled
    1. Born of the seed of womanGen 3:15Gal 4:4
    2. Born of a virginIsa 7:14Mt 1:18-25
    3. Seed of AbrahamGen 22:18Mt 1:1
    4. Seed of IsaacGen 21:12Lk 3:23+34
    5. Seed of JacobNum 24:17Lk 3:34
    6. Seed of DavidJer 23:5Lk 3:31
    7. Tribe of JudahGen 49:10Rev 5:5
    8. Family line of JesseIsa 11:1Lk 3:32
    9. Born in BethlehemMic 5:2Mt 2:1-6
    10. Herod kills the childrenJer 31:15Mt 2:16-18

    Concerning his nature
    11. He pre-existed creationMic 5:21 Pet 1:20
    12. He shall be called LordPs 110:1Acts 2:36
    13. Called Immanuel (God with us)Isa 7:14Mt 1:22-23
    14. ProphetDeut 18:18-19Acts 3:18-25
    15. PriestPs 110:4Heb 5:5-6
    16. JudgeIsa 33:22Jn 5:22-23
    17. KingPs 2:6Jn 18:33-37
    18. Anointed by the SpiritIsa 11:2Mt 3:16-17
    19. His zeal for GodPs 69:9Jn 2:15-17

    Concerning his ministry
    20. Preceded by a messengerIsa 40:3Mt 3:1-3
    21. To begin in GalileeIsa 9:1-2Mt 4:12-17
    22. Ministry of MiraclesIsa 35:5-6Mt 9:35;11:4
    23. Teacher of parablesPs 78:1-4Mt 13:34-35
    24. He was to enter the templeMal 3:1Mt 21:10-12
    25. Enter Jerusalem on donkeyZech 9:9Mt 21:1-7
    26. Stone of stumbling to JewsIsa 28:16; Ps 118:221 Pet 2:6-8
    27. Light to GentilesIsa 49:6Acts 13:46-48

    The day Jesus was crucified

    28. Betrayed by a friendPs 41:9Jn 13:18-27
    29. Sold for 30 pieces of silverZech 11:12Mt 26:14-15
    30. 30 pieces thrown in TempleZech 11:13Mt 27:3-5
    31. 30 pieces buys potters fieldZech 11:13Mt 27:6-10
    32. Forsaken by His disciplesZech 13:7Mk 14:27+50
    33. Accused by false witnessesPs 35:11+20-21Mt 26:59-61
    34. Silent before accusersIsa 53:7Mt 27:12-14
    35. Wounded and bruisedIsa 53:4-61 Pet 2:21-25
    36. Beaten and spit uponIsa 50:6Mt 26:67-68
    37. MockedPs 22:6-8Mt 27:27-31
    38. Fell under the crossPs 109:24-25Jn 19:17; Lk23:26
    39. Hands and feet piercedPs 22:16Jn 20:24-28
    40. Crucified with thievesIsa 53:12Mt 27:38
    41. Prayed for enemiesIsa 53:12Lk 23:34
    42. Rejected by His own peopleIsa 53:3Jn 19:14-15
    43. Hated without causePs 69:4Jn 15:25
    44. Friends stood aloofPs 38:11Lk22:54;23:49
    45. People wag their headsPs 22:7;109:25Mt 27:39
    46. People stared at HimPs 22:17Lk 23:35
    47. Cloths divided and gambled forPs 22:18Jn 19:23-24
    48. Became very thirstyPs 22:15Jn 19:28
    49. Gall and vinegar offered HimPs 69:21Mt 27:34
    50. His forsaken cryPs 22:1Mt 27:46
    51. Committed Himself to GodPs 31:5Lk 23:46
    52. Bones not brokenPs 34:20Jn 19:32-36
    53. Heart brokenPs 69:20;22:14Jn 19:34
    54. His side piercedZech 12:10Jn 19:34+37
    55. Darkness over the landAmos 8:9Lk 23:44-45
    56. Buried in rich man's tombIsa 53:9Mt 27:57-60

    His Resurrection & Ascension
    57. Raised from the deadPs 16:8-11Acts 2:24-31
    58. Begotten as Son of GodPs 2:7Acts 13:32-35
    59. Ascended to HeavenPs 68:18Eph 4:8-10; John 3:13
    60. Seated beside GodPs 110:1Heb 1:3+13

    Sorry it's all scrunched up.

    One thing is definitely true.
    There is too much correspondence for it to be a coincidence.

    1. The Bible correctly prophesies events in the life of Jesus, or
    2. The life of Jesus according to the Bible has been doctored so that he appears to be the predicted Messiah.

    Happy New Year.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  18. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    And which do you subscribe to?
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    The ancient Hebrew view of the world was as a flat disk. So this is unremarkable. Isaiah doesn't actually predict a spherical Earth.
  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    The Captain introduces one of the more peculiar areas of Christian theology, namely 'Biblical typology'.

    Intertestamental Jewish messianic expectation started it and early Christianity eagerly adopted it. What the typologists did was go through the so-called 'old testament' line by line, looking for anything that, however fancifully, seemed to 'pre-figure' the messiah. Since human imagination is endlessly inventive, some Christian typologists actually came to the conclusion that the OT consisted of nothing but prefigurations of Christ. (This involved some pretty radical allegorical interpretation, which generated theological push-back from the literalists.)

    The Captain's first example, Genesis 3:15, supposedly a prophecy that Christ will be born of a woman, shows how it works.

    In Gen 3:14 we have God addressing the serpent, which he curses to crawl on its belly and eat dust.

    Then in Gen 3:15 we read: "I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers, he will crush your head and you will strike his heel."

    That's it.

    And in the fertile minds of the early Christians, the serpent becomes Satan, the "he" who crushes his head becomes Christ, and Gen 3:15 becomes the "protoevangelium", the very first preaching of Christ.
  21. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Wrong. I am familiar with the claim that Pythagoras theorized a spherical earth. And guess what? None of the sources I researched can confirm that claim. Below is what one source stated.

    "It is doubtful that Pythagoras himself thought in terms of spheres, and the mathematics of the movements of the heavens was not worked out in detail. There is evidence that he valued relationships between numbers such as those embodied in the so-called Pythagorean theorem, though it is not likely that he proved the theorem. In recent scholarship this consensus view has received strong challenges, which will be discussed below."
    You will find the above towards the end of the third paragraph when you click the weblink. So that leaves you with the followers of Pythagoras. I will deal with their numerous false claims in my next post.

    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  22. Alter2Ego Registered Member


    I notice you dodged my question where I asked you to explain how Isaiah, who was earthbound, could have known that earth appears like a circle when viewed from outer space.

    BTW: Exactly when will you present documentary evidence that any of the ancient Bible writers thought the earth was a flat disk. While you are at it, be sure and present writings by the ancient Hebrews in which they claimed earth is a flat disk.

  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Oh look, cherry-picking and deliberate misrepresentation.
    What that link talks about is the movement of heavenly bodies "in accordance with the mathematical ratios that govern the concordant musical intervals in order to produce a music of the heavens, which in the later tradition developed into “the harmony of the spheres.”" This is THEN followed by the statement "It is doubtful that Pythagoras himself thought in terms of spheres..."
    I.e. the quote given is nothing whatsoever to do with the shape of the Earth.

    As for "I am familiar with the claim that Pythagoras theorized a spherical earth. And guess what? none of the sources I researched can confirm that claim".
    How about Wiki? - "According to Diogenes Laertius, "Pythagoras was the first Greek who called the earth round".
    How about Ohio State University? - "500 BC: Pythagoras proposed a spherical earth purely on aesthetic grounds".
    How about the American Physical Society? - "It was around 500 B.C. that Pythagoras first proposed a spherical Earth".

    In other words, not merely a troll but a selective and dishonest one to boot.

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