karma

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by birch, May 4, 2016.

  1. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,342
    Hi Write4U

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    In response to your reply - we (humans) are part of the universe, though and as such, we are much more than mathematical ''constants.'' I don't think that karma is linked to morality per se, it's more a simple playing out of cause and effect. If karma were strictly about moral goodness etc., then bad things wouldn't happen to good people.
     
    Write4U likes this.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,268
    I totally agree with your post at a *local or interpersonal level*. But you cannot get away from the universal mathematical constants and as humans are but a small part of the universe, our existence has no influence on the universe itself, other than our *closed* system of a small planet (earth) circling a common type star. To the universe our existence is just a probabilistic phenomena. If man disappeared, the universe will continue to function as it has for 13.7 billion years.

    IMHO, all spiritual philosophies are psychological in nature, but our brains are a result of universal mathematical constants and impersonal mathematical functions. These fundamental properties of the universe were/are causal to all life (and extinctions), in addition to the creation and destruction (change) of matter itself..

    The dark side of human intelligence is the ability to take more than what the earth can comfortably sustain. The result is GW and all its mathematical consequences. As Hellstrom (Hellstrom Chronicle) said "there are but two species on earth which are increasing in numbers. Man because he can manipulate his immediate environment and artificially extend life, and the insect (a much older and simpler organism) which can adapt to anything man can do to our environment, due to its short lifespan (allowing for genetic modification) and their enormous numbers, which increases the probabilistic adaptation to any change in the earth's environments. Insects were here first and may well become the only surviving species on earth as demonstrated their continued existence throughout every calamity which caused the extinction of larger and more complex organisms.

    So Karma (cause and effect on living organisms) seems to favor the insect, odd as that conclusion may seem to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,342
    Not sure karma is entirely objective, though. Are you saying karma is part of the universe's mathematical constants?

    Okay, I should have kept reading. lol You answered my above question. This is a very interesting take you have, that you think our brains are a result of mathematical constants.

    This reminds me of our chat over at the other science site, regarding determinism.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Do you suppose that the only reason it appears to favor the insect is because the insect doesn't have the psychological makeup, in terms of complexity, as a human? Although, researchers have submitted that insects have the ability to be altruistic. Not sure that has anything to do with karma, though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,268
    As I understand it, insects don't have the ability to make judgments at all, except for rudimentary mathematical abilities.

    I know very little about insects that live solitary lives and basically communicate only to draw a mate, but hive insects have division of labor and probably a more sophisticated form of language and a hive-mind seems an expression of a mathematical system, with reactive abilities.

    But insects have no morals, all actions are hardwired, they have no choice at all. One could see that as a perfectly deterministic society, no choices, no morals, no altruism. They must do what they are programmed to do, including self-sacrifice, if necessary.

    IMO, a hive is close to being a living computer, consisting of little living robots and with the sole purpose of producing more of its kind, excluding caterpillars which can only eat but not mate, but then metamorphosize into an entirely different and spectacular being that can only mate and die shortly thereafter. An astounding mathematical process.

    From Oxford Dictionaries,
    And from wiki,
    Insects never need ask the question, They are the perfect example of Karma, they must practice what is good for the hive . Maybe that's why they are so successful. But their reward is a short life span, one could say that's bad Karma. And if you look at the much longer life of a queen Termite, that would make you question Karma altogether. T0 spend some 30 years in one spot, unable to move herself and become a throbbing egg laying machine, by the millions, all for the good of the hive. Such a torturous long life is not a good Karma reward . But mathematically it is good Karma for the hive, and they will thrive. A kind of *pay it forward* Karma.

    All this pretty well rules out the concept of good and bad karma in context of intent or personal reward, even in the spiritual sense. But, IMO, in the abstract, it satisfies several cosmic mathematical imperatives.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  8. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,342
    Altruism isn't about morals, really, it's an evolutionary mechanism that helps a species to have the best chance of survival. Altruism is nearly an instinctive characteristic that causes members of any species (most species) to look out for others, to sacrifice for the good of the whole. But, it isn't entirely based on pure motives, it is also something that is done in order to preserve a species. If most people look out for one another, chances are humankind will survive.

    It coincides with your insect/hive example. Karma needn't be a principle that we tie morality to. As always, you bring about great thinking points, and are thoughtful in your response.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,268
    Kindred spirits? : )
     
    wegs likes this.
  10. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,342
    Maybe

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. birch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,942
    This is really insane. What is it that people are not getting? Is the girl who got her feet amputated by going on a faulty amusement park ride deserved that? Was it karma? If you simply note its cause and effect, then yes but to add the connotations of some moral justice behind it is ludicrous. Is a child who got killed in a war deserve that as in karma? Hell no. Are those victims of human trafficking deserve that as in karma? Are all lottery winners deserving of that type of money and have the ability to be responsible? No. Again, its cause and effect as well as others actions affect your life too, not just your own. Ridiculous religionists may attribute all and any outcome as' god's will' or some believe that people deserve everything that happens to them which is a grave insulting sense of justice because it just isnt true. That said, we have the consciousness and some power to enact karma but whether its moral or just will depend on us, otherwise it will be fucked up. Shit happens anyways to the deserving/undeserving just as blessings. So no, people dont always get their just desserts either way. We can try but there are forces as well as factors and variables beyond our control. And if moral karma was inherently part of nature apart from us, then no one would dare do the crap they do because they would know they would never get away with it now or eventually but that isnt the case. We enact that the best we can because we have the consciousness and sense. Nature is rudimentary, detached and mindless on this front.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,268
    The scientific term for Karma is *Natural selection*, which is a natural probabilistic function.
     
  13. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,342
    But, we're not.

    And karma isn't at all about ''just desserts.'' That's what many commonly think it's about...''oh, she got karma for being such a gossip.'' That's not what it is. It's little more than reaping what we sow, but this doesn't mean that ''bad things'' can't happen to ''good'' people.
     
  14. birch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,942
    But its more complicated in 'outcome' than that because anything can be manipulated. You can reap what you sow or another can reap what you sow just as well, good or bad. The outcome depends on circumstances, culture, timing, politics, evolution of people around you and their state/values etc.

    It is not true that you only get positive back for positive and negative for negative. Life experience proves that isnt the case. It will all depend on what and who you are dealing with at the moment. Some will see it as opportunism for exploitation, vulnerability etc not necessarily engender fairness, friendliness or gratitude.

    Realistically if people could simply count on 'reap what you sow' and that were the case, we wouldnt need laws, police, lawyers, judges, militaries, jails and prisons.

    Life experience, again, shows that one can only control a fraction of their life in the strictest sense of 'reap what you sow' not only in ones own life but others. More realistically, society 'reaps what it sows' as a whole but who is affected is not always fair. A child does not deserve to he born addicted to drugs or with hiv, abused or in a cancer ward etc just as many adults bear the brunt of negative experiences wrought by others which they did not cause or deserve. This happens all the time which is why there is a saying 'life is not fair' but karma is essentially saying it is. So, in essence, only as society improves their conscience can we hope to have a closer to fair outcome yet still it is what affects the whole. It is simply what goes around can come around and that has no relation to who sowed what as there will be those who reap it in the firing line which were not responsible just as improvements in society which benefit/reap whether they were the sower or not.
     

Share This Page