ISDAMan, There are a number of passages in the Bible that make me think that the angels can very well say the same thing, such as Genesis 19:1-16 and Hebrews 13:2. If man is made in God's image, and angels can be mistaken for men, why do you say that the angels are not made in God's image as well? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
666, Actually, I think there were many gods in the OT, but the one who came out and called himself Jealous and ordered that his people should put no other gods before him, and demanded that people who broke his rules be killed - that's the one I'm referring to here as the god of the OT. Hmmmm...if the god of the OT is Sam, then Jesus would be the Son of Sam! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But then, Jesus did reveal himself to be the "morning star" in Revelations 22:16...the plot thickens! (Just kidding, just kidding - don't stone me!!) I know this might come as a surprise to everyone, but for the record I should say that I'm glad Jesus came along and toned down all the hatred, violence and general nastiness of the OT. Those must have been very perilous times to live in before Jesus came and took a stand for what's right, and talked some sense into a lot of people. I really think the world is a better place because he lived, no matter who he really was, and even if it turns out that he only lived on the pages of the NT. No, those sentiments don't make me a Christian - not by a long shot. I also like Robin Hood, but I certainly wouldn't want to become a "Hoodlum", and I wouldn't want "Hoodlums" insisting that if I don't become one of them I will burn in Hell for all of eternity. I'm just saying that for the most part, Jesus was an alright guy (except for that god-complex thing), and it's really not him or what he stood for that I'm rebelling against - it's his sometimes overzealous followers who want to push their beliefs on everyone else, and sometimes in very unattractive ways. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Vinnie, Gosh, Vinnie - I must have missed where we were talking about Ted Bundy. Okay, I'll speak for myself here - I am referring to all the killing in the OT for ridiculous reasons (worshipping other gods, working on the Sabbath, consentual sex outside of marriage, being disrespectful to one's parents, etc.). For example, the OT god demands that if a person tries to get you to worship strange gods, you should take ahold of that person and drag them off to be stoned to death - no matter if it's friends, family members or whatever! Vinnie, you must admit that there was some major ugliness going on in the OT, which cannot be completely divorced from the NT, regardless of how ugly it is. I believe that this is what most of us are referring to here. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Truestory-Very informative, but I'm still kinda fuzzy on the whole "not suffer her to live" thing. It sounds like a death sentence more than simply making her an outcast.
TS..You are 100% correct when you say the deliberate taking of a persons life is sinful and immoral. That is murder. The accidental killing is justified. Some deliberate killings are justifiable, such as in situations of self-defense, etc. I do not believe that all witches should be killed, of course not Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. I just used that passage to illustrate that, even after forbidding killing, he makes references to it. Jesus did not make the OT obsolete! He simply fufilled its prophecies, and clarifying several vague points. That is like saying (poor ex., but you get the idea) that we should throw the constitution out and simply use supreme court rulings!
Searcher, That is a fantastic question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Psalms 8 shows that we are below the angels and above all other creatures. In some aspects, God's children are equal to the angels in that we will be directly in the glory of God and will never die once with Him. Read Luke 20:36 Hebrews chapters 1 and 2 gives a perfect description of the position of Christ, angles, and man. We know from other areas in the Bible, like Romans, more about the inheritance that God's children gain in Jesus Christ. It's not really known if some angels just look like us or if all are able to make themselves look like us. At any rate, there is a uniqueness about our imortal sperit that the angels just don't have. You see, God breathed life into us alone. The immage is not physical. In the same way, you are physical flesh. Yet, your image in the mirror is only the look of physical flesh. The reflection we bare of God is the immortal spirit that He has breathed into us. Whe have some of His attributes wothout His glory and power. This flesh is just a robe that we ware for a short time and are appointed to cast off so that we may stand before God and receive the rewards of our deeds. The angels are really intreagued to see what will happen with us in the time of flesh. God's Word is the instruction book you thought you never had, ISDAMan
Searcher, I can't belive I let that typo go!!!! I ment to say. The God of OT is the same God of NT, who whent on a killing spree. I am curious, what make syou belive that there was more than 1 God? I think the stark differances between "Gods" behavior in the OT and The NT just gives more light to the fact that the bible was verry well constructed piece of fiction. Mabye not totaly fiction, but certainly heavily based in fiction. ------------------ My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.
ISDAMAN, Why put the robe on in the first place? Well it's not like we realy had a choice, but I would like to hear what you think. It's one of those things I think about a lot. Manny people belive we here to learn and grow before we move on to the after life. I find this to be a bit silly. What is so hard in the after life that we prepare for it here in a place with so much godness but wraped in so much hell. It would seem to me that if life were the traing grounds then the after life would have to be similar and not much step forward. In fact a step backwards. We uasly use a lesser event/situation to train for a much harder event. ------------------ My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it. [This message has been edited by 666 (edited January 06, 2000).]
Searcher, God's law is exact and the standard is quite high. The standard is perfection! There was, while man was under the law, a way made to temporarily deal with man's imperfection. Jesus ushered in the aspect of God's grace and took the punishment for us so that man would no longer have to live under the letter of the law. God is as full of justice, grace, and love, and is as demanding as He ever was. Take, for example, a hologram. Look straight at it and you see one image. Look from the side and you see another. Has the image changed before your eyes? No! Your orientation to the image has changed. The effect you see only seems to be new. It was always there. The same is true of man's orientation to God from the OT to the NT. Nothing has changed except man's orientation. Christ has places us in the position to be able to better see the grace aspect of God. It's now up to man to pay attention. Love God with all your heart and be free, ISDAMan
Just because God changed his presentation to us does not dicount his existence. If god had told Abraham to turn the other cheek, he would have been ritualistically raped and beaten to death. As the people around the jews evolved, god allowed the jews to evolve as well. His message has always been the same, he just must present it to us slowly. You dont sit down and have Calculus II taught to you...you must go through years of Arithmetic, Algebra, Gemoetry, etc. to have a base to build upon. The same is true with god and his relationship to the jews. Im kind of babblin, but you get the idea Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
6, That is another great question!!!!! To make it easy, only God knows. The most that we know is that He has given us the opportunity to choose to Love Him while here. He never wanted robots. Just look around. God loves to create good and different things. For some reason, He just came up with the idea of flesh. Now, the sin part that makes this place tough to live in, that's not God's fault at all. That's where our own choices come in. The Bible says that we screwed up all of nature by our sin. See, you question has two aspects. You want to know about why flesh and why bad stuff. The bad stuff is because of sin. The robes of flesh,... I don't know,... God just being creative? Love those that Hate you, ISDAMan
ISDAMan, Thank you for your service to both God, your country and your fellow man. It is very much appreciated. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Semper Fidelis!
Corp. Hudson, Thanks for your kind response and your clarification of the use of the sorceress passage. I hope I did not come across as indicating that I considered the Old Testament to be obsolete... If so, mea culpa! Just so you know, you didn't come across as babbling... I followed your explanation about the need for certain laws at certain times and the need for a slow development of God's relationship with man. Some of us think we've got it bad now? This was a most horrible, debased world back then... hence, the need for God's intervention. It made perfect sense to me when I first started studying the Bible and I believe you explained it well. You and ISDMan seem to be doing a great job of putting some things into perspective... Thank you! [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 07, 2000).]
666, There are a number of passages in the OT that talks about multiple gods, either directly or implied, and several that mention "Sons of God". One example is Genesis 1:26, which begins, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...". An account of the "Sons of God" breeding with the daughters of men appears in Genesis 6:1-4. There are numerous admonitions in the OT about not worshipping other gods, which seems unnecessary if there are no other gods to worship. Exodus 22:28 states, "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people." There are also a number of "false" gods/goddesses named throughout the OT: Adrammelech (Syria), Anammelech (Babylon), Ashtoreth (Canaan), Baal (Canaan), Baal-peor (Moab), Beelzebub (Philistine), Bel (Babylon), Chemosh (Moab), Dagon (Philistine), Diana (Greek), Jupiter (Roman), Milcom (Ammon), Molech (Ammon), Nebo (Babylon0, Nisroch (Assyria), Rimmon (Syria) and Tammuz (Babylon). One passage I find particularly interesting in the NT is John 1:18, which states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Of course, there are several passages in the OT that contradict that statement (e.g., in Exodus 33:11 Moses talked face to face with God as a man speaks to his friend), so maybe the question is, which God hath no man seen? And which God was seen by several individuals in the OT? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Searcher, Forgive me if this gets long. Anything that you place before God in your life becomes your god. Why,... because that is what you worship. It's true if you place money first, a boyfriend first, model car building first, or anything first. God regards neither man nor his false gods. There is no other God! None of the false gods have any real existance. They are tools of man to excuse his sinful ways against God in Heaven. Anything can be made, by man, into a small "g" false god. God wants us to focus our worship His way because He is the source of all perfection. He is perfect and, for our own good, we need to keep in line with Him. To worship other things is to worship imperfection and invite destruction. Your Genesis 6:1-6 reference seems to contain the thought that the words, "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.", in chapter 2, carries the idea that something other than humans was being referrer to here. Though, only the Christian can be called a child of Christ, all humans have the life which is the breath of God in them and are children of God. You, yourself, are a child of God. All that is being said in chapters 1-6 is that men saw that women were beautiful. They got together, had some fun, had many children, and were extending away form God. God announces in this passage that He is placing limits on man's number of days upon the earth. That limit being the span of 120 years. Also, giants weren't 50 feet tall. We still have the rare giant today. You know,... those 10 foot tall and taller people. Perhaps, then, some were even taller than the ones we see today. They seem to have been more prevalent back then before the flood than they are today. If two giants were to mate today, we could very well see the start of a whole new race of giants again. Now, the fact that God refers to Himself as, "Us", is a matter of His being. He is one God manifest in three persons,... Father, Son, and Spirit. It is the same as an egg being shell, white, and yoke. This still is not a full example of God. It is impossible to quantify God down to a matter of physical things. We read in I John 5:7 <FONT COLOR="BLUE"> For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.</FONT> You have given Exodus 33:11 as an example of a face to face viewing of God. That is incorrect. The Bible says that God spoke with Moses face to face. It says nothing about Moses seeing His face. God hid Himself in a cloudy pillar. You'll see this if you read Exodus 33:9-11 <FONT COLOR="BLUE">And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.</FONT> Now, I can still see you saying that this is no face to face talk. So, here's an example to help you see. Women in the Middle East tend to vial their faces. If you walk up to one and talk to her, though you can't see her face, are you not still talking face to face with her? Clarity of God's Word comes through His Holy Spirit. ISDAMan [This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited January 08, 2000).]
