Military Events in Syria and Iraq Thread #4

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    In a multipolar world there is no way to enforce any contract between nations. So of course nukes, biologicals and chemicals are going to be the agenda for every nation.
    The only nation that has been strongly active in policing the non-proliferation treaty has been the USA. Certainly Russia has had little interest. With out the USA actively mitigating the spread of nukes there is no other nation to do the job.
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    I nominate Australia for the job as cop of the world.
    All in favor say aye.
    The ayes have it, congratulations Australia!
     
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  5. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    If America doesn't want the job and Australia is willing to acquire some nukes and take over the role, I'll happily accept that. I'd be happy if Canada pitched in too.

    Meanwhile if the USA doesn't want to protect its own interests, Russia will work as hard as possible to cut it off from the entire middle east both militarily and economically, so you better sell them as much Coca Cola as you can before it's too late.
     
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  7. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    The "contract" was not ratified, neither by the US nor by Russia, so that it was only a memorandom. In fact, the Ukraine never had the control over the nukes. Even if they were on Ukrainian territory, they were always controlled by the center.

    The Ukraine was foolish enough to follow the US-supported maidan terrorists and to overturn the legal president. This putsch had consequences, because the people of Eastern Ukraine did not want to submit to fascist rule. The result was souvereignty of Crimea and a civil war in Donbass. In fact, this civil war and the splitting away of Crimea would have happened even with the Ukraine fascists controlling nuclear weapons.
    Whenever you speculate about what I want the result is pure nonsense. As expected, because whenever you talk about what I think the only purpose is defamation. There will be no bipolar world, but at least four poles - US, China, Russia, India. If the EU splits there will be a lot of independent nations, if not they will be another pole.
    Why would Trump care about that contract at all?
    Nice funny try. But Putin already knows that he is under attack of the globalists already more than 11 years when he declared in Munich that he wants a multipolar world. That the same globalists hate Trump too is also well-known. Given their power in the US, it was clear from the start that if you are in Trumps close environment they will hunt you. And given the US "three felonies a day" legal system it was clear from the start that they will succeed jailing some of them.
    In fact, murdering Ghadaffi during the time of the unipolar world was extremal stupidity from the point of view of fighting proliferation. After this, it looks like Ghadaffi has been so stupid to trust the West and not to build nuclear weapons, and paid for this with his life.

    The logic works in the other direction: Given that many states already have nuclear weapons, there is no way to enforce some rule of a world government on them. This is a fact of life. And the only reasonable way to react is to accept the souvereignty of the states. Prevention of proliferation has a chance only if the states can have sourvereignty even without having nuclear weapons.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The result was Russian military intervention and annexation of Crimea.
    Opportunity it would not have had without the rise of fascism in Ukraine, which it abetted.
    Pattern, there.
    Yep. Which is what we had a reasonable shot at, until the rise of fascism in the US.
    Trump is a wannabe globalist - a corporate capitalist with global business interests, that involve corruption of local governments and "unipolar" coercion of vulnerable people. He's just not very competent at it - his genius is marketing and sales and promotion, with someone else doing the dirty work.
    There is no "three felonies a day" aspect to the "US legal system" - it's too decentralized, for one thing. There are fifty different legal systems in the US, just at the State level. You may be thinking of three crimes a day - but the organized criminal enterprise surrounding Trump is not subject to prosecution for small crimes (too wealthy, too well connected): their prosecutable crimes are serious, and would be under any working legal system.

    Compare Putin's legal system, for example, where crimes are whatever some official says they are - beatings and jailings and abuse (including assassination) for offending or threatening the wrong oligarch, and they'll figure out the crime later if need be.

    Or Assad's, who adds an extra level of medieval torture to the extrajudicial enforcement of the nonfelonies one had better not commit - such as being Kurdish, and wanting sovereignty.

    You are in favor of sovereignty, for those who want it, right?
    How would Russia get on that list? Its population, economy, and level of development are all too small - its basically a resource state, like Iraq or Saudi Arabia or Venezuela. Sure it has nukes - but so do Israel and Pakistan, not on your list.
     
  9. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Mexico should be on Schmelzer's superpower list too, if like Russia they decide to prioritize nukes over pensions in the future.
     
  10. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    You have made unreasonable shot, murdering Ghadaffi, during Obama rule.
    Feel free to think so. What he is doing fits nicely with what I hoped for in optimistic mood. Now he is ending the first war, instead of having started new ones.
    Silverglate's book is named "three felonies a day", so I only quote here, and it is about federal laws going insane. The "seriousness" we have discussed in the case of the Mueller indiction against the evil Russians influencing American elections. I have asked here about the difference between me with a friend doing here what I do here using some nickname and the evil crime of conspiracy of these Russians, and there was no answer. The only identifiable crime was to have opened bank accounts so that those who bought the advertizements could transfer the payments, 25 dollar or so per twit.
    Why should I compare a fantasy legal system painted by Western propaganda? I see that the prison population in Russia is decreasing, fine. But it is yet far too large. As I have explained many times, Russia is not a land I would like to live now, and the legal system is among the reasons for this. But, if compared, I would not see a problem in visiting Russia for some time, while I would never visit the US, because even a short time on US soil would be too dangerous.
    Again, I'm not interested in Western fantasies. But, of course, a state in civil war is certainly not a place where one can expect a nice legal system.
    Indeed. I do not question US souvereignty. If they want to imprison all the blacks together with all the white trash, I do not object. I will not visit that country anyway, that's all what I do.
    What makes it a pole is its second strike ability. Pakistan and Israel can be blackmailed by the West, and in particular Israel depends heavily on its strong lobby in the US and Europe. Russia is indepedent, the West has already now no power to blackmail it. It is a state which has souvereignty already today. It may be economically small, but this makes it a pole already today.
     
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  11. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    The only people who give a crap about Ghadaffi are Vladimir Putin and his supporters. Putin is reportedly obsessed with the videos of Ghadaffi getting stabbed up the butt, because he knows that one day it could easily happen to his buddy Assad and even himself. Thank you for once again showing us your criteria regarding global priorities. I hope Putin pays you well because if not, you're doing far too much for him without getting your fair compensation.

    So the Russian system is good enough to lord over everyone else, but not good enough for yourself? Geez at least show some spine and stick up for the beliefs you advocate. The reason you shouldn't visit the US is because no one would be interested in talking to the annoying smelly Russian fascist guy, you'd be very lonely.

    No doubt you're too busy concocting fantasies about physics instead, like taking a well-established existing theory, adding some useless postulates to it and then claiming you derived the whole thing from first principles.

    So you have no problem with black people being oppressed by fascists in the US, but you do have a problem with fascists being oppressed by liberals in Ukraine. Ok, we already knew all that, so why do you keep repeating yourself?

    Israel has a second strike capacity just like Russia, and if they were susceptible to blackmail from the West, with all of the West's double standard hypocrisy in favour of totalitarian imperialists like Russia, China and Iran, the Jews would all be living in a New York ghetto awaiting their deportation to Antarctica. Remind me comrade, was it Israel that collapsed in the early 90's and begged the West for a mass bailout?
     
  12. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Who cares are those who may appear in a similar situation. That means, leaders of states which are in principle capable of building nuclear weapons, and have some reason to expect that one day or another Washington may not like him and start a regime change operation.
    CptBork reports .... Lol.
    I'm anarchist. Nobody is good enough to lord over me.
    And I would not be interested to talk with snowflakes too. No culture, nothing to talk about.
    Don't shift the question. Even if I would have a problem with slavery, no matter of blacks of whites, I would respect US souvereignty. I stay away from this racist (from both sides) culture, it is foreign to me. And, n, you have completely confused what I think about Ukraine. There are no liberals there, there are Bandera fascists and pro-Russian separatists. I care a little bit more about them because I have been there, like the people and their culture.
    No.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The anarchist speaks.
    You would do well to stay away from the media operations of its fascist political wing as well, then - so you would post fewer wingnut idiocies in complete ignorance, from being played by them.

    Your dislike of liberals and their culture is of course familiar. That's how one becomes a pro-fascist authoritarian supporting "anarchist" in the US also. But gullibility in the face of US rightwing propaganda is not a necessary aspect of that, at least not for a foreigner.

    That way, on a forum with many Americans, when you post something like this:
    Americans could have some confidence in your judgment, instead of comparing your claims to the bizarre crap you post about American politics, American "liberals", American "fascists", and so forth. Especially when you contrast "fascists" with Putin supporters, as if they were different kinds of political groups - how does that work?

    Because if you are contrasting the fascists of this world with Putin, as if he were in some special category of his own, you have no chance of clearly evaluating his Syrian agenda.
     
  14. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    No, independent mainstream media with a track record of usually being accurate are the ones to report it, and it corroborates with Putin's supporters being the only ones who keep raising a stink about Ghadaffi. Meanwhile all you do is read Putin's state-run media and chat with some of his trolls in Russian forums, which is how you keep coming up with doozies like this one:

    I recall not so long ago that you were justifying to me why it was acceptable for Assad to purchase electricity, water and fuel from ISIS while prioritizing the fight against more moderate factions who didn't control any vital infrastructure. That's where they got much of their money, also by raiding Mosul's banks after the shiites in Iraq's army abandoned it without a fight, but you seem to have a very limited memory span.

    Ok, so do you agree that Russians aren't good enough to lord over Ukrainians, Georgians or Syrians, and that those people deserve all the same rights as you including the right to tell Russians how stupid they are?

    I see Russia every single freakin' day trying its ass off to copy US culture, I don't see the US copying much of anything from Russia. I hope one day you'll stop with the act and admit to everyone that Americans upset you by being better than Russians at everything, and that you want it to stop existing so you can feel like a valuable human being.

    Which just shows that you've never met any Ukrainians before, other than perhaps a few whose grandparents got dumped there by Stalin and were too stupid to figure out which direction was east.

    Yes. Israel has deep underground missile silos designed to withstand nuclear attacks, and submarines with nuclear missile capabilities. Russia does not have the technology or industry to pull off a nuclear attack on Israel without losing all of its major and minor cities and military bases in exchange. Also Israel has demonstrated vastly superior missile defense capabilities in combat, whereas all Russia can do is have its Syrian subordinates randomly fire missiles in the air and claim they downed all their targets, and brag about how some fat lazy bear is coming to drink all our vodka (once its 50-year hangover clears, of course).

    In any case, why would a second strike nuclear capability entitle a bunch of lazy stupid living failures to act as a global "pole" with the right to set the policies of their neighbours? What about Ukraine's sphere of influence, which should rightfully include Moscow? Spain alone is a bigger pole than Russia in global affairs, industrially they do far more to create global development and prosperity.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It has nothing to do with the criminal behavior of Trump and his family, or the Republican Party's corporate backing.
    Why do you, continually? You are one of the most gullible posters here, when faced with Western propaganda.
    Syria's "legal system", including its torture infrastructure and the like, predates this civil war by decades.
    Russia has no cultural or economic power to speak of.
    Russia is a military power only, with a capitalistic corporate economy and rightwing authoritarian government. If you favor it as a pole, that's the nature of what you favor - multipolar fascism.
    And from that you expect international law and peace.
     
  16. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Unfortunately I'm unable to stay away from things existing only in your fantasy.
    I have explained you many times that I use the description "fascist" only for people who openly support movements or parties which identify themselves as fascist. Bandera is openly fascist, and openly admired by all those Ukrainian "liberals".
    It tells me that Mueller has a good chance to find something against Trump. Or at least against many of his environment.
    So don't speak about it, once you know nothing about Russian culture.
    I don't favor any of the poles, I find much better places to live outside the poles. All I can say about the poles is that I disfavor one - the most aggressive, the most totalitarian, with the greatest GULAG of the world, the most dangerous, because of only this pole fights for a unipolar world. If any of the others start to fight for a unipolar world ruled by himself, I will disfavor it too.

    LOL, "independent" together with "mainstream". Such animals do not exist.
    I think it is acceptable to do such things instead of leaving the citizens of Aleppo without electricity and water. In some sense, the IS behaved in a more civilized way than the Ukrainian fascist gangs who have stopped water and electricity going to Crimea. They did not get much money from this, only what they could tax from the profits of the factories which supported that infrastructure. Simply, they have some very archaic morals, but nonetheless morals, and fighting civilians by destroying infrastructure is not what they do.
    The Russians don't even want to rule over Ukrainians, Georgians or Syrians. The people of Crimea prefer Russian rule over Ukrainian rule, and the people of South Ossetia and Abkhasia prefer independence over Georgian rule. The Syrians also prefer Assad rule over IS rule or SA- and US-paid terrorist rule.
    US "culture" (as far as one can name all those Mickey Mouse things coming from US "culture" reached some popularity immediately after the end of communism. This time is already over now. Those few who continue to copy US "culture" are a minority now. Nobody expects from the US to import any culture from anywhere.
    LOL, the only thing which is nice in America is, at some places where it is left untouched, nature. I have seen some nice pictures of mountains.
    LOL, I have even lived there some time, not much, half a year, in Odessa and Charkov. I have not had a single problem speaking Russian with them, and not any problem to understand other people even if they spoke among themselves, because they speak Russian themselves in these regions, with some minor accent, that's all. I don't speak Ukrainian, except for a few words.

    Fantasies about almighty Israel disposed of.
    Russia does not set the policies of its neighbors. It cares about its own country, it is big enough.
    The Ukrainians would be happy to be able to rule their own country appropriately. It is already very close to a failed state, and all that prevents it from finally to fail is Western money paid to the oligarchs for political reasons.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Why yes, you have.
    And the funniest part of that is you go on to claim superior ability to assess propaganda.
    Not knowing how fascists use propaganda hampers your assessment efforts considerably.
    It has nothing to do with what he has actually found, and nothing to do with the crimes Trump has actually committed.
    And it's a wingnut media meme, from the usual sources - you got suckered again.

    Look: Unless you are just running a con here, trolling under cover of foolishness, you aren't the brightest bulb on the tree when faced with American marketing pros. There isn't a single meme from the familiar US rightwing corporate authoritarian propaganda operations that you haven't swallowed - hook, line, and sinker. Your only hope is avoidance.
    That's too bad. Because you are defenseless.
    The problem with ignoring Russia's lack of economic or cultural power is that it leads to overlooking the implications of Russia's current ambitions and expansion of influence.
    Because it isn't going to be economic or cultural. There is only one way Russia can become a major pole in a multipolar world any time soon, and it's ugly.
     
  18. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    I do not expect any agreement with you about this. You will, of course, continue to believe the propaganda sources you trust. I will continue to pick information which seems sufficiently reasonable from whatever sources. The methods of how to extract information from propaganda sources are obviously too complex for you, so you trust a few own propaganda sources. Once you seem unable to discuss particular methods you have no alternative anyway.
    Feel free to believe that he has found something valuable. Say, Manaford has worked with Ukrainian oligarchs, so it is obvious that he has to be corrupt and that any investigation will easily find something objectionable. For this, the information that he has worked for Yanukovich is completely sufficient. The results about the Russian internet agency were simply laughable and completely fit into the "three felonies a day" mem because there was no crime beyond using some fake names.
    Nice try. But, first, mems are nice simplifications but can be as true and as false as other, more complex expressions. And it is a well-known propaganda method to name simple facts one does not like enemy propaganda. This old and simple communist propaganda method works for small children only. And not even for all of them - I have learned and understood this method already as a child, with the help of a communist propaganda show which "refuted Western propaganda".
    The main problem with ignoring Russian cultural power is that you have no idea about the meaning of culture and think that what America sells with Hollywood is what civilized people name "culture".
    It is not that there is no culture related to America. There is blues, jazz, country, rock music. And there were contributions to political culture by your founding fathers and your constitution as well as libertarian philosophy. And even Hollywood has contributed something to culture. But Hollywood is nothing in comparison even with Tarkowski taken alone. Which is something you cannot even understand if you evaluate "cultural power" in terms of how much money you can make selling comics worldwide.
     
  19. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Oh come on Schmelzer, you think he's suggesting that America beats Russia for culture because it sells more comic books? If that were the basis for cultural power, mighty Russia wins hands down, as proven by this brilliant North Korean state cartoon:

    Iceaura is referring to the fact that American influence is found around the world in terms of inventions, products and ideas. The number of people who want to live an American-inspired lifestyle and do business with the US is far greater than the number of people who want to live a Russian lifestyle and buy Russian products, even in Russia itself. Those who protest America's involvement in their countries still act like they've been robbed when America deliberately withdraws its involvement and blocks their access to its banks, Putin himself blames relatively minor such restrictions as the cause of his own economic stagnation.

    Russia does nothing for the world to deserve having a sphere of influence beyond its own internationally recognized borders. The only basis for Russia to have such influence is through the use of military power and nuclear threats to bully neighbours and to subjugate traditional clients with systematic genocides, there's no good outcomes for anyone to expect out of such an approach. So once again, why should Russia have the privilege of acting like a global "pole" when it comes to international decision making? If nuclear weapons are a source of unique international privileges, what's to stop or discourage more nations from acquiring them just like Pakistan, India, Israel and North Korea?
     
  20. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    This may be in part a problem with different meanings of "culture". The meaning of "culture" I know from German, as well as Russian use, do not include such technical parameters like numbers of patents and products.

    After the crash of communism the West, and in particular the US, was certainly preferred by most people living in the former communist countries. But this is changing. I'm an example of this change myself. I was quite happy that living in Eastern Germany we became part of Germany so that we were able to live in the West without any need to emigrate. But living in any other Eastern European country I would have certainly thought about emigration, with the US being a potential target too.

    In my case, this did not last a long time, a single visit to the US for three weeks was sufficient to learn that this is certainly not a place to live for me. I started to feel that Europe has a clearly superior culture, which would prevent insanities which happened in the US at that time. Then I had to learn that everything that happens in the US will happen a few years later in Europe too and had to see Europe degenerating following the US model. At that time I started to hate the US.

    In the Eastern former communist countries, the situation is a little different. During the first time, they learned that all the nice words from the West were lies, because the result of the transformation was, first of all, an economic crash - in some sense unexpected because nobody expected that there is anything in the communist economy which is able to crash. The winners were a few oligarchs, usually, sons of the former party elites, nicely cooperating with the West, and hated by the people. This leads to some people starting to hate the West too. On the other hand, the economic decline even increased the motivation to emigrate. But at least in Russia, after Putin coming to power the economic situation improved, and everything else too. One can blame this on the oil price, but the oil price is not all, and it was clear to everybody that with, say, Chodorkowski being the president a big oil price would have given nothing at all to the poor Russians, and the oligarchs and the mafia would have ruled forever.
    The people of Syria, Crimea, Donbass, South Ossetia, and Abkhasia are quite happy that Russia supported them. If you doubt, feel free to travel to these countries and ask them. They don't care what some American Nazis think about what Russia deserves.

    The question about who is a pole or not is, of course, a simple question of power. Russia has the power to tell the US "f... yourself" and decide about its own affairs in a sovereign way.
    Nothing. This is the lesson of the Ghadaffi murder. If you are able to acquire nuclear weapons, do it before the US succeeds to kill you. After this, you may even become a good friend of Trump, like Kim. But even Clinton will think twice before regime-changing you.

    You don't like this situation? Your fault. Putin was the Russian reaction to the NATO bombing Belgrad. Blame yourself. If you would have behaved in an adequate way, there would be an acceptable unipolar world even today. US rule was found to be unacceptable for too many people around the world.
     
  21. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    Don't you guys realize that corruption won the cold war?
     
  22. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    I hope you're referring to Soviet corruption bringing them down from within, in which case incompetence was also an issue. Of course America deals with corruption like every other nation on the globe, but I have a hard time seeing how you can get much worse than Stalin and everyone who followed after him.
     
  23. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    It was not corruption in the usual meaning of the word which was the problem of the Soviet Union, but the communist economic order. Those ruling factories were not that much interested in improving production, but in fulfilling the commands of the bureaucracy. People had to spend a lot of time trying to buy something which was cheap, but therefore not available for free. If some of this appeared in a magazine, everybody nearby bought it immediately. The everyday corruption was about knowing some salesmen, they could hide some of the things and sell them to good friends, with not selling these things to unknown customers being the main crime in this case. Fulfilling stupid commands was a greater problem that not fulfilling them because of corruption. Usual private entrepreneurs were criminals and had to hide everything, in particular, the whole production process. They worked, essentially, in usual factories, producing useful things instead of the useless things they had to produce following the plan, and all the workers supported this illegal activity, participated and gained something from this. Formally, one can name this "corruption" too, but it is something quite different.
     

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