# Modelling wind turbines and pumped-storage hydro for renewables-only 24/7 electrical power

Discussion in 'Architecture & Engineering' started by Scottish Scientist, Apr 9, 2015.

1. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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13,698
*shakes head* Scott, Scott, Scott... your formula is a bunch of horseapples. Your entire argument is built upon a false premise.

I think, at this point, you see that and know it... you just refuse to accept it because it takes any perceived legitimacy away from your rage...

3. ### BaldeeeValued Senior Member

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1,234
Sorry, I thought stating something being 80 times smaller than required for the whole is "pointing out".
My mistake,
But just to clarify, you're not "pointing out" that Musks battery farm is too small for this purpose?
But again just to clarify, you're not "pointing out" that Musks battery farm is too small for this purpose either?
But, once again for clarification, you're not saying that the battery farm is too small for its purpose?
Maybe in some sections of the pop-science media, but not by Musk and not by S.Australia it hasn't.
Musk has promoted it as a solution to the energy problems that left the area in blackouts, and reasoned that a battery farm of the size he is building would suffice to resolve those issues.
I think it's on the lower end of what he thought might be needed, but still, it's in the region.
He also sold it as a means to be able to test whether wind power could be used as a base-load.
If, through that testing, it is established that the storage capacity of his batteries will allow a baseload of 20MW from wind power then surely that is a successful test?
If it is only 10MW then it is also a successful test.
What it then allow, because of that testing, is not only a more accurate calculation of what storage would be required to provide a certain baseload from wind power, but also the demonstration that it is even practically possible.
Both are what will likely be part of the test.
And it is this testing capability that is being promoted, not the batteries being built as the solution to overall problem,
He's not being paid anything for a battery to allow baseload from wind power.
He is being paid for two things that I can see:
1. The primary thing is the load balancing that the batteries will provide to their existing grid, to help solve the short term need to prevent further blackouts.
2. It enables the testing as to what extent wind power can provide baseload energy requirements, and the storage requirement for that to happen.

That's what he is being paid for.
Sure, he's a businessman and is paid to publicise.
But he's not lying.
Do journalists possibly misunderstand to try to sensationalise the story?
It wouldn't be the first time such has happened, would it.

5. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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13,698
Also:
I think your claim that Musk is purely in it "for da money" is patently false... why else would he through a quarter million of his personal funds into relief efforts in PR?

If you want to point fingers about greed...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...erto-rico-contract-raises-eyebrows/796882001/
How is a two person company going to handle rebuilding Puerto Rico's infrastructure...
Oh, right, because Joe Colonnetta (the equity firm that finances Whitefish Energy) donated heavily to a certain presidents campaign... and the CEO of Whitefish Andy Techmanski is a close friend with the Interior Secretary...

18. ### BaldeeeValued Senior Member

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1,234
And allows for the testing of wind power as a baseload supply.

19. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

Messages:
13,698
Okay, I guess I'd like sources for your "lucky to last five years" figure, as well as whether or not you are factoring in the costs of maintenance and maintenance workers, etc needed for the pumped storage plant.

Also, again, you are dancing around a potential issue - does Australia have anywhere to build one of these that has the requisite reservoirs, terrain, etc near where it is needed?

If this technology was the magic bullet you seem to claim it to be, I can't imagine why it isn't more popular. Maybe people don't like having several hundreds of thousands of tons of water sitting on a hill above their town, waiting for the first fault to send it rushing down?

20. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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13,698
Indeed, it does. So since the wind station is already up and available, the issue at hand is that there have been times where it couldn't keep up with demand, resulting in brownouts and blackouts. This battery system can be quickly stood up to solve that problem in the intermediate time while a more permanent solution is found. What's your major malfunction with that?

So because it's a step in the right direction, but not a total solution, we should abandon it entirely. Got it.

So that makes you the snake oil salesman, as you seem to be the only one representing the battery system as the baseload system, rather than the load balancer it is.

You have yet to substantiate this claim at all.

Then why are you doing so?

And you'd make a great artist - however, your behavior and utterly abysmal attitude has given me no reason to believe your claim that you are a "world respected" renewable energy scientist - without proof, why should I take your word for it?

Yes, we already clarified that about a dozen posts ago... the problem is, you keep using 5 x generation capacity interchangeably with 5 hours worth of generation capacity. Those aren't the same thing... as anyone familiar with how batteries work could readily tell you.

So, then, I ask you yet again - what is your problem with a stopgap solution being sold as a stopgap solution? You would rather they have no solution for the several years it would take to build a hydro plant...?

21. ### Scottish ScientistRegistered Member

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41
Oh I am all in favour of people testing my designs. That's why I have provided an on-line system designer.

Rubbish. One only Bath County power station would be nearly 4 times South Australia's present needs.

I am saying the South Australia needs an energy storage of 8,000MWh, not "power generation of 8000MW"

Bath County has an energy storage of 30,931 MWh, (it can supply 3,003 MW for 10.3 hours) which is 3.8 times more than I suggested was needed.

(I have not specified the power output of the pumped-storage hydro scheme but it wouldn't need to be the wind power capacity of Australia's 1600 MW of wind turbines because the average power supplied has to be multiplied by a capacity factor, which say is 30% would mean an average power of 0.3 x 1600 MW = 480MW might suffice for present wind power 24-7 baseload needs.)

So rather than the "8000MW" power generation you thought I said was needed, something more like 480MW is all that is needed, for now.

Okinawa Yanbaru Seawater Pumped Storage Power Station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Yanbaru_Seawater_Pumped_Storage_Power_Station

South Australia has a proposal for a seawater pumped-storage scheme.

Cultana pumped hydro project: Knowledge sharing report
https://www.arup.com/publications/r...pumped-hydro-project-knowledge-sharing-report

22. ### Scottish ScientistRegistered Member

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41
Your mistake was in using the words "the full farm" when you said

"Do you not think that if you are capable of pointing out that it is 80 times too small to handle the full farm"

I am indeed pointing out that Musk's battery farm is too small to serve as a wind-powered baseload system by these factors -
* 80 times too small for South Australia's 1600MW of wind power
* 15 times too small for Hornsdale's 315MW
* 5 times too small for Hornsdale's third stage of 109MW
The pop-science media were misled by what was represented to them in the news conference attended by SA Premier Weatherill and Elon Musk on Friday 7 July 2017, Adelaide, South Australia.

It was the duty of those in the know to state clearly that this was a temporary fix for a mostly fossil-fuel powered system that did not and could not offer any way forward to 100% renewable energy grid in South Australia.

A sticking plaster to fossil fuel back-up to wind. I know that, you know that but that's not the impression that was given.

It wouldn't be the first time a snake oil salesman has fooled the customer, no.

23. ### KittamaruNever cruel nor cowardly...Staff Member

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13,698
Designed by you, no doubt?

Glad you cleared this up (thought it was already clear but okay)

So we would need 10 of these Tesla stations to do that. I am curious as to the footprint of the battery farm compared to a pumped-hydro farm (I would also imagine the battery farm can be stacked vertically to some extent, should the need arise, or be put underground if desired). Still seems like this is a pretty good test-bed case for the worlds first large-scale battery farm.

It is my understanding this only provided about 30MW and was dismantled less than two decades after construction began. I am curious to know what materials they used to resist corrosion and the charge carrying abilities of salt water, and how that would affect pricing when scaled up.

South Australia has a proposal for a seawater pumped-storage scheme.

Cultana pumped hydro project: Knowledge sharing report
https://www.arup.com/publications/r...pumped-hydro-project-knowledge-sharing-report[/QUOTE]

Looks to be about 225MW for 8 hours, costing about half a billion to build and wouldn't be completed until 2023 - that leaves them vulnerable for six years if they started construction today and everything goes exactly as planned.

Sounds like a good idea - get the power pack station up and running, and have this project in motion as well.