# New York World Trade Centre

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Red Devil, Sep 11, 2001.

1. ### Red DevilBorn Again AthiestRegistered Senior Member

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1,996
For Wet1 and Elbaz

I too have served in my country's military, and in Northern Ireland, although I hasten to admit not "in the front line" but nevertheless IN there when it was dirty. I have seen terrorism at first hand and believe me, you cannot negotiate with the terrorist - it is something against what they think they are doing. I have been car bombed, had mortar shells fired at me, and lost comrades. Two were bomb disposal - they died protecting the ordinary perosn on the street, whilst the perpetrator of the murder was standing in a bar in the Republic, drinking and laughing with his contemporarys about how well they did today. Diplomacy is always the best solution but, in some cases, and especially this one, no amount of diplomacy will work. Diplomacy, in the minds of these extremists, is a gun of the feeble minded. I applaud your sentiments Elbaz, as we in the free world, are entitled to Free Speech and Freedom of Thought. The Terrorist does not like that; he/it wants it their way or blow the planet up! Unfortunately, the best terrorist is a dead one - and I don't care how many "martyrs" are created; martyrs cannot kill again. If the USA allows terrorism to win in this case, then we can kiss democracy and your basic freedom goddbye. Please don't forget one important thing - the money used by terrorists in Northern Ireland is the \$ - food for thought.

3. ### Patmanjust one of the lostRegistered Senior Member

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Elbaz
I have no problem with Canada or your feelings of diplomacy. I don't agree with the fact that an American would pose as anyone but an American. But If it's true that's fine. If you as a Canadian went into Afghanistan as a Canadian you would probably be treated much the same as an American, you would die.
Sorry your history is not known world wide. I really don't care that you made the first Trans-Atlantic flight. I don't care that the White house is white or why.
I don't care that we as a country are not squeaky clean not my cross to bare. Tell me your country never did anything it didn't regret. All this aside we still have to crush terrorism once and for all. It is a plague on the free world! As plenty have mentioned diplomacy WILL NOT WORK! This is the chance to do what we can to crush it.
The big problem they as a people will not let us walk in and tell them this is how you you are going to run things from now on. They don't even want us involved. They won't let us restructure their part of the world.
Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone.
guess what no stones will fly we are all guilty of something.
ScotiaB
Rational transaction. Their lives to save ours! Simple!
Red Devil
Sorry for what you've dealt with, if it helps I would like to say that with this action I think we should rid the world of any and all terrorism world wide. Don't fully understand IRA or their cause. But either way terrorism should not be tolerated anywhere!

5. ### felixRegistered Senior Member

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I agree that terrorism should be fought. And the only way to get rid of current terrorists may be with guns. But guns alone cannot put an end to terrorism. In most cases, it is bad diplomacy that starts it.

Conquerers always eventually have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Or the actions of their predecessors. You cannot expect a conquered people to like it. If the powerful will not listen to the weak, the weak might rise up and fight. And by the very fact that they are weak and facing a powerful foe, they are forced to fight by any means possible. I'm not sure I can say I would do differently in similar circumstances. Someone who has already lost everything has nothing to lose by fighting.

Putting an end to terrorism is going to take open ears and open minds. Not just "open fire".

7. ### kmguruStaff Member

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Very wise felix. Are you an ex-CIA that has seen the land of the enemy? I sincerely hope that our government and the governments of the world create an environment to eradicate the cause of terrorism. Otherwise we will see bigger problems in very near future.

And it will not be easy. For example the people of Iraq and Iran, blame US for thier economy. Even a lot of people from Pakistan blame the US due to US economic embargo. You are not talking about a few hundred present terrorists today and making surgical strikes to kill them. There are atleast 400 million unhappy people that blame US for everything including why their dog died. And when you eliminate a few, they have relatives that will fill the gap.

It will take 10 years to improve the quality of life for these people. We should start now, while looking for justice. It has to be a comprehensive plan. Every one is at risk specially UK.

8. ### WhammyRegistered Member

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The only language a terrorist understands is Aggression.
10 years ago, when a certain Administration took over, the Military started "Down-Sizing." They incorporated sensitivity training so we could have a "Kind-dler and Gentle-tler" military to attract the new generation of soft/slacker youth. All the while, these terrorists were over in the desert eating scorpions and buring the American Flag. WE're spoiled! We're no were near as tough as our parents and Granparents were and had to be.
If we don't respond swiftly and harshly, we are going to start losing pieces of the Freedom Puzzle. What's the Freedom Puzzle?
Being able to express freely, are opinions on this Forum. Walking out of are dwellings with no paranoia, carefree with a sense security. Having the choice to strive for financial, religious, and/or sociological excellence. Etc, etc, etc!

And this is not just a US problem! There were many other countries that suffered loses. Britain lost over 300 countrymen.

This is and is going to be a NATO extermination of terrorism. Right now as we speak CIA, NSA, FBI, French Foreign Legion, British Intelligence, Special Forces, NATO Special Forces, and Etc. are in action. Laying down the foundation and doing the homework so we(US,NATO) can go kick BUTT!

So what am I trying to say?

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion.......................................................................................of course as long as you have the right(or is it a luxury??

) to express it.

Andrew Alexander, FC2(SW), U.S. Navy

GOD BLESS AMERICA

9. ### kmguruStaff Member

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I am all for kicking butt and Freedom...as long as Americans are not killing other Americans in the name of Terrorists!

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Re:small note

Airplanes were used in WWI. They used to get shot down by soldiers and other airplane fighters. I think the Red Baron fought in WWI and shot down 80 Planes for the Axis before getting shot down himself. I also think that Australia began building planes before cars since we used to build them for the war. Or it might have been our plane industry was bigger than out car industry.

11. ### Patmanjust one of the lostRegistered Senior Member

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I never said this would be easy
The people in these regions are very divided in their loyalties and who they trust. To say the least we're not high on any of their lists. Yes, it will take years to change things for the better. But as I said before restructuring their countries can only happen if they want our help. And worse still we have enemies everywhere even the countries that are friendly to us have underlying resentment for the United States. This could very well become a lot more than a search and destroy mission. It would be easier if there was a strong government in place that we could back and restore full power to, but they're holding on by a thread themselves and do we really want this to be the ruling body. Allegiances' change very quickly in this area so it will be difficult no matter what. I feel bad for the soldiers that will have to fight this war because it is strangely going to seem a lot like Vietnam in a desert, not knowing who the enemy is and trust me when I say this they will use their children for suicide bombings, as human shields, and as soldiers. A 9 year old shooting at you is still your enemy. And also remember that 9 year old will grow up and be more dangerous to the free world. It not their fault granted but we also can't send over hundreds of therapists to get to root of their anger issues. So don't be horrified when they all start crying that their children are being killed because they will be and with good reason. They are not children they are in fact soldiers and should be treated as such. I feel the deepest sympathy for our soldiers that will have to live with this fact for the rest of their lives.

12. ### Red DevilBorn Again AthiestRegistered Senior Member

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1,996
Patman

Here in the UK we are going to be worse off the the USA if all this goes ahead. Because of our governments pathetic policies on immigration etc we are riddled with these *******. Even our law sides with these people. At a mosque in London, we have seen pro bin laden supporters screaming against us! And our pathetic people allow it!! This country deserves to sink without trace - I was once proud of my nation, to be English, not any more, I wish I could come to the States!

13. ### odinRegistered Senior Member

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1,098
Just a thought

I think that everyone forgets that the main aim of the muslims is to convert the world to Islam.
Remember,the taliban were willing to kill their own people in Afghanistan,in order to enforce their extreme brand fo Islam.
Their mullers & clerics want absolute power in the name of"God".
The terrorists believe they will envoke the fear of the west by using suicide tactics-it seems that every one has forgotten the suicidal actions of the British soldiers during World wars 1 + 2 - walking straight towards the enemy across the bloody battlefields,armed only with a rifle wave after wave of men walking towards almost certain death.
I am sure the American soldiers did as well.

14. ### Red DevilBorn Again AthiestRegistered Senior Member

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Odin - point of order!

Actually Odin, after the American War of Independence, several centuries, and WW1 we (the British Army) finally learnt our lesson and did not advance, rifles ready, towards the enemy like that in WW2 - it took a while but we learnt! For Some Guy - if there were no planes in WW1 what did the Red Baron (Richtofen) fly in - a broomstick? Oh and Snoopy too!

15. ### kmguruStaff Member

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In any society, there are people who are willing to sacrifice their life for a cause. To their perspective, it is a noble cause as with Japanese during the WWII. So Moslems are not any better or worse than anybody else.

Every religion wants to convert to create a homogenized society. The best solution is to embrace and assimilate to a common culture and not common religion. Until people learn that, we will continue to have these problems all over the world.

16. ### odinRegistered Senior Member

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1,098
Red Devil

Why did Spike Milligan say in his memoirs that he thought he was lucky as he watched the soldiers walk past in a long stream,to go up to the front to fight hand to hand with only their Lee Enfeild's during WW11
He also said,he saw almost none come back.

Last edited: Sep 17, 2001
17. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:

To feed men and not to love them is to treat them as if they were barnyard cattle. To love them and not respect them is to treat them as if they were household pets.
:-:Mencius:-:

18. ### felixRegistered Senior Member

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- Keep your clothes and your weapons where you can find them in the dark -

- Lazarus Long

19. ### Red DevilBorn Again AthiestRegistered Senior Member

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Odin

A slight conflict of interpretation here. Marching to the front, as described by Spike is not exactly the same as mentioned by yourself which gave me the impression that you were refering to them "crossing the battlefield" marching towards the enemy - which of course only fools would do! I was just querying your phraseology, thats all.

20. ### kmguruStaff Member

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Mine has an active laser sight. I should be OK.

21. ### felixRegistered Senior Member

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. I hope so, kmguru. But that laser sight isn't always on, is it? You still have to be able to find it in the dark. And don't forget about your clothes, you don't want to die of exposure. And fighting naked sucks.

22. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
I will get some warning to put clothes on. I have three big dogs that occasionally take down deers for dinner when we forget to buy their food from Wal-Mart.

With night vision equipment and infrared TV cameras, we are set. - and so are my neighbors.

23. ### WildBlueYonderGuest

You must live on the bayous? Sounds like an armed camp?
Me, my time in the Air Force showed me that some people can really be gun-crazy, that they & planes are deadly & that I would rather not have one. Though I wouldn't mind living in a converted DC-9, like I saw on TV once.