On Homeopathy

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by timokay, Jul 31, 2003.

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  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member


    True we have nothing that stop virii we do have preventative measure such a vaccines, and ant-viral be we do have cures for many chronic or psychiatric diseases. Just because allopathic medicine is not perfect does not mean is not superior; please tell me how holistic medicine has cured the above at a high success rate.

    A fallacy is a event in a arguement which is a failure of logic and is wrong.
    Begging the Question fallacy
    1. Claim A is made
    2. Claim is true because it must be true.

    for example:

    Bill: "God must exist."
    Jill: "How do you know."
    Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
    Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
    Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."


    H: Homeopathy is great,
    F: why?
    H: Because it is and I'll present no evidence on it.

    Objective Ad Hominem fallacy:
    1. Claim A is made
    2. Person B attacks the nature of Claim A but provides no evidence against it.
    3. Therefore A's claim is false.

    for example:
    "Then tell me why pathology has absolutely nothing to do with therapeutics and we quickly enter into insoluble problems, because 1) allopathy is obviously just self-admitted quackery and should be totally banned from human contact, just as Oliver Wendel Holmes said, and 2) they have all five basic assumptions about medicine totally wrong and thus also all of their conclusions (i.e., therapeutic procedures and results) understandably wrong and effete."

    But the biggest fallacy on this thread is the Burden of Proof fallacy, you see this thread is on homeopathy, how does homeopathy work? This is not “all the little flaws and oddities of allopathic medicine” thread. If you want I will make multiple post long counter arguments against your claims on allopathic medicine but I have a life and don’t have the time for that right now, but that’s not the problem the problem is you first need to explain to us how homeopathy works and how successful it is. The burden of proof here is on Homeopathy not allopathic medicine.
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  3. river-wind Valued Senior Member

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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    monkey pox is also a genetically distinct species and is far less fatal then small pox, but that’s off topic the topic is the nature of Homeopathy.
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  7. timokay Registered Senior Member

    MRC Hans,

    The main problem is the definition of the term "the disease".
    In Homeopathy, the "disease" is not the disease-agent but a failure of "disease management" in the body, since this system should be able to overcome ALL disease, without symptoms. And there are a very large number of possibly faults in this system. So, how can there be a "control" starting point?
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    The control are people with similar symptoms or the same disease. We try to cure the disease in the experimental group with our treatment that we are testing. Depending on how the experimental group compares to the control we can determine if the treatment works, does nothing or is harmful.

    Homeopathy is based of the body healing all problems, how do they deal with genetic diseases? The bodies natural state in these cases may even be fatal.
  9. timokay Registered Senior Member

    Mr Fetus,
    Anybody who makes it through early childhood could not possibly have a significant genetic disease fault in their "disease management".
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Hahahha lets give classic example here: Thalassemia major (beta) life span without treatment average about 25 years, only treatment is blood transfusion and bone marrow transplants. The problem is 2 defective copies of hemoglobin beta gene (there are 4 copies total) explain to me how holistic medicine can cure this disease?
  11. timokay Registered Senior Member

    CONTROL? That is still the devil of a problem. We are all genetically different, with the possibility of 1000's of subtle differences and weaknesses in our "disease management".

    In homeopathy, the "patient" is treated, not the "disease agent" which may or may not be responsible for the symptom presentation in the patient. The DISEASE does not exist in homeopathy unless you mean the fault in the patient's disease management.

    Dr Hahnemann once said, "There are no diseases, but sick people."

    You said "similar symptoms", but in homeopathy, symptoms include every single kind of effect or manifestation of the illness..can run into 1000's for each patient, carefully gathered by the doctor before being matched to the most appropriate of nearly 3,000 tested Homeopathic medicines.

    The medicine manipulates the fault in the patient's disease management such that it is able to use its many resources to overcome the disease (and it does have resources to eradicate ALL disease).
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    and that the probelm with homopathy many disease are in fact cause by a agent and it true the everyone is didfrent o ne indivdial level that way some treatment work on only some of the people. again i aks how does homopathy cure disease please give examples

    see you tonight bye
  13. timokay Registered Senior Member

    Mr Fetus,

    Re. Thalassemia major and other extremely rare genetic conditions that don't get you as a fetus or as a baby.

    These are to be excluded from the ALL list. There are 100's of chronic conditions affecting many millions of people that Homeopathy CAN cure.

    With Thal. major, Homeopathy could certainly help the patient by pushing the homeostatic processes as far as is possible. The long-term prospects with this treatment are unknown for these unfortunate people.

    We should be focusing on the masses who CAN BE helped, where conventional medicine has failed.
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    so homeopathy is limited then? also what is the success rate of homeopathy, especial compared to allopathic medicine.
  15. timokay Registered Senior Member

    Mr Fetus,

    Disease Management

    (Instead of the Immune System, the term "Disease Management" (DM) will be used in this discussion because there is believed to be a centre in the Brain which works together with the immune system to manage diseases).

    The Healthy person's DM has the resources to heal virtually all disease conditions, and do so even before symptoms present, with the person being completely unaware of the disease. In very rare circumstances, e.g., plague, the Healthy DM may become overwhelmed and symptoms present, temporarily. In this case, one remedy would likely be the the best choice for all those suffering, at least initially. (If complications occur in some of the patients, this is an indication of some weakness in DM.)

    For the vast majority of diseases, which would normally be easily conquered by the Healthy DM, the disease agent itself is very rarely the problem to be addressed, but only highlights the kind of weakness in the patient's DM. That is why the Homeopath "treats the patient, not the disease agent", i.e., he is targeting the fault in DM rather than the disease agent itself. So, the "disease" IS the fault in the patient's DM, not the "disease agent".

    When Hahnemann cured acute disease conditions, (i.e., where DM was overwhelmed or in a weakened state), he noted that there was often some other underlying weakness in the DM of certain patients. When such patients become infected with disease agents, due to an inherited condition, the disease is not properly managed and remains unresolved in the patient. Over the years, this inherited weakness causes the accumulation of unresolved diseases in the patient, who becomes a "chronic disease" patient. His condition usually declines over a period of years until death, unless he can be treated effectively.

    The chronic disease patient shows a symptom pattern which reveals the nature of the most prominent of these diseases, which the doctor then treats Homeopathically. When this disease resolves through the disappearance of many of its symptoms, the doctor re-evaluates the totality of symptoms, and chooses the most appropriate medicine for these symptoms. This process of re-evaluation is repeated until the patient has fully recovered.

    The treatment is like a "backing out", or reversal, of the accumulated diseases, one by one.

    Because the choice of medicine depends on "totality of symptoms", which guide the doctor to the choice of medicine, it is as though the Brain Centre which produces the symptoms, can only process one disease at a time, starting with the most serious. When this disease is cured, the next most serious disease presents itself through its symptom pattern. So, although there may be several diseases in the body, the Brain Centre only reveals the most serious one at any one time.

    The well-chosen Homeopathic medicine is guiding, or pushing, the body's own healing processes in the right way, compensating for the fault in the patient's DM. The result is COMPLETE healing, because the body already has the resources to resolve virtually all disease.

    Normally, with Homeopathic medicines, it is not possible to hurry healing processes, but only to guide them to completion. But, Hahnemann found a way to accelerate the cure of many chronic diseases, so long as some skin symptom(s) remains visible (which is often the case in the chronic diseases he treated). He would simply give many more doses, and at more frequent intervals, of the well-chosen medicine and continue with these as long as the skin symptom(s) persists. This dramatically shortened the recovery time.
    So, the chronic diseases are not the result of an infective agent but are a weakness of genetic origin. In a healthy person, DM has no problems in maintaining homeostasis, promptly extinguishing any disease - a system which evolved into its almost perfect state over many millions of years.

    However, being perfect is not the rule of genetics - continuous genetic variation of individuals is essential for the species to adapt to environmental stresses, and many individuals are sacrificed for that overall goal. In all our cells are 40,000 genes, each having between 2 and 200 operational versions. The combination of genes we are dealt make us unique. The DNA of these genes is translated into proteins which make and manage the 4 trillion cells of our bodies and define who we are.

    The variation of genes at each generation makes us all different in constitution; we are all genetic experiments to test our suitability to the world as it is today. This is measured by whether or not we pass our genes on to the next generation. People have chronic diseases of genetic origin because their "total genetic variations" have proceeded to a level at which some metabolic or physical process of the body, such as DM, is not fully functional, AND which cannot be fully compensated for by Homeostatic mechanisms. Such weaknesses or faults in DM are exposed by specific infectious agents, causing chronic diseases.

    To heal diseases such as cancer or AIDS, spending billions researching the pathology is a complete waste of time and money. The body ALREADY has the resources to resolve virtually all disease - the fact that these diseases arose at all is a reflection of some weakness in the body's disease management...if the diseases do not resolve when the patient's lifestyle is improved and all exciting factors removed, then the problem must be of genetic origin, in DM, and can be compensated for. It may be a genetic defect in a single transmitter used by Disease Management, making it less efficient. If it were anything more serious than this, then the patient would not have survived beyond early childhood.

    Homeopathic medicines compensate for this particular weakness in DM, making it fully functional again, and able to use all its resources to eliminate virtually all diseases. Correct management involves a cascade of activities in the body's control systems, according to instinctual memory instructions. NO Cancer drug will ever be effective unless it acts at the top of this hierarchy of healing processes, because otherwise it will be acting against these processes.
  16. timokay Registered Senior Member

    Mr Fetus,

    Hahnemann very rarely failed with any disease. If they were hours away from death he would likely fail. Success rate has never been considered because conventional medicine does not recognise Homeopathy...it is not a contender worthy of comparison. About 90 years ago, especially in the USA, Homeopathy became the victim of a witchhunt.

    Virtually all the Homeopathy hospitals were shut down. 30 years before that, Homeopathy stood above conventional medicine.

    That's history. The problem today is that there are now the means to properly establish Homeopathy's mechanism and then use it to help millions (10's of millions in the USA) with many common "incurable" chronic conditions such as MS, Fibromyalgia, CFS, IBS and many many more which Homeopathy knocks on the head.

    It won't happen until there is a revolution. The dominant medical system and all its supporters will always prefer to maintain the current arrangement of suppressing Homeopathy...there is too much at stake. Homeopathic medicine are dirt cheap. Hahnemann always gave them freely to his patients...got himself run out of town twice...had to resettle his family in other cities...two of his children were murdered. He was putting the pharmacies out of business.
  17. timokay Registered Senior Member

    Mr Fetus,

    Yes, there IS a disease agent involved but the point is, what agent? All we have to go on are a collection of symptoms the patient has (unless we have deliberately infected him).

    But, the body should have resolved the disease agent without symptoms even appearing, as would happen with 99.9% of the population, who get infected with all kinds of things every single day and are unaware of it because they are resolved without presentation of symptoms, standard practice.

    And if we were to try to address "a specific known disease", even then we have a problem because if several people have THAT DISEASE, and produce symptoms as a result of it (due to a fault in DM), it does not mean that they will all present the same symptom pattern (although this will usually be the case in epidemics).

    Homeopathy treats the particular fault in each particular patient's DM, never a disease agent (which only highlighted the problem).
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    I most cases the agent can actually be extracted (such a viral, bacterial, Zoonotic, ect) and identified empirically. Many infectious disease of the such are not in anyway easily immune to, they can and do out match the human immune system in the majority of the human populations. Stopping what’s causing the illness and your treat the person. tell me how the homeopathy treat a bacterial infection?
  19. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

    The reason why the idea behind homeopathy is so unlikely is the dilution process- effectively it is one drop of effective agent in a solar system worth of water.
    the impurities in the water would be a quadrillion times more concentrated than the introduced effective agent, so the effects of the impurities should be more noticable.
    some of these impurities will be effective agents themselves
    especially if the solution is made in a homeopathic clinic.
    (don't tell me the vessels and the buildings are clean- have they been sluiced out with a solar system worth of water?)
    this means any homeopathic preparation is just as likely to contain a different effective agent against any other illness
    as it is the one you want.
    well, that's no good as a treatment- it is obviously utter complete nonsense. (sorry)

    SF worldbuilding at
  20. Hahnemannian Registered Senior Member

    MRC Hans—

    Everything you say here is wrong, and they all stem from the five basic assumptions of medicine that allopathy has totally wrong and is part of why they cannot cure:

  21. Hahnemannian Registered Senior Member

    WellCookedFetus says:

    First of all, vaccines as a preventative are a lie, and they actually produce diseases not only immediately but long term.

    Anti-viral drugs are a farse; there's no such thing yet.

    And, I repeat, there are also no allopathic cures for any chronic or psychiatric cases, and this is not kept quiet about either; they merely get away with naming hundreds or perhaps even thousands of chronic diseases as "incurable" without telling us that they all are.

    Next, homeopathy is the only holistic therapy, it is NOT part of the so-called "alternative therapies," for those are all part of what is traditionally classed as Empiricist allopathy, while modern is traditionally part of Rationalist allopathy.

    You will discern this from Article 52 of the ORGANON OF MEDICINE (http://homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/organon.html), and then take that fact to Harris Coulter's DIVIDED LEGACY, Vol. III, and realize that our historian seems to have not read that passage, for he insists as part of his thesis for that work and others that homeopathy IS part of the "Empirical medical tradition."

    Not true.

    That said, Hahnemannian homeopaths are surrounded by low-potency pseudo-homeopaths in the approximate ratio of 1:10,000 and by high-potency pseudo-homeopaths in the approximate ratio of 1:100.

    Hahnemannian homeopathy has cured all diseases in exactly the same way: via the Law of Similars.

    It is a natural law, and it seems to be part of the fabric of space from Creation for this very purpose.

    You will find how in the ORGANON OF MEDICINE.

    Key in on Article 153.


    Then you said:

    But that's already been done, and nearly 200 years ago too, in the ORGANON OF MEDICINE.

    The fact that allopaths have not examined it and tested it is more than well known.

    The subsequent evidence is all of our clinical verification of the method.

    If you want to give us some of that multi-billions of dollars every year wasted on allopathic research, we'll see if it can be established via experimental science.

    But I point out that homeopathy is applied science, not experimental science, and it is the actual SCIENCE OF MEDICINE due to its 10 Laws of Medicine, so there are very easy ways to prove homeopathy, the first being high-potency self-provings to establish the verity of homeopathic pharmacology.

    Why have none of the people who have supposedly tested homeopathy NEVER engaged in this sole test of homeopathy?
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2003
  22. Hahnemannian Registered Senior Member

    River-wind says:

    I'm willing to provisionally accept that, for the source of the notion was Walene James's quoting of somebody else I don't presently recall.

    The issue of smallpox is problematic for anti-vaccination arguments, but the fact is that epidemics come and go, and Thomas McKeown established with graphs from mortality tables in THE ROLE OF MEDICINE that vaccines are NOT responsible for the disappearance of any disease and, in fact, cause rises in their incidence.

    The long-term issues of vaccines are seen in homeotherapeutics, for the time-element of Hering's Law of Cure well establishes that many cases have their origins in vaccines.

    Vaccines are 100% evil, and we will not budge on this no matter how we may occassionally mess up our arguments as I did by attempting to explain the disappearance of smallpox to changing the name.

    I will look into your references, and I will expect them to be accurate, but the fact remains that epidemics come and go and vaccines have never been established to be responsible for their disappearance.
  23. Hahnemannian Registered Senior Member

    WellCookedFetus says:

    There's no such thing; nobody has ever had or will ever have the same symptoms or the same disease.

    That is an allopathic falacy.

    Even the relatively fixed diseases called childhood diseases vary with time in their common symptoms, but every case is forever unique due to its uncommon symptoms and the unique manifestations of them.

    They just look similar.

    I understand that allopathic Minds cannot conceive of this, but it is true, and Hahnemann was the first person who noticed this.

    You will find that repeated several times in THE LESSER WRITINGS OF SAMUEL HAHNEMANN.
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