On Homeopathy

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Hahnemannian,

True we have nothing that stop virii we do have preventative measure such a vaccines, and ant-viral be we do have cures for many chronic or psychiatric diseases. Just because allopathic medicine is not perfect does not mean is not superior; please tell me how holistic medicine has cured the above at a high success rate.

A fallacy is a event in a arguement which is a failure of logic and is wrong.
Begging the Question fallacy
1. Claim A is made
2. Claim is true because it must be true.

for example:

Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

or

H: Homeopathy is great,
F: why?
H: Because it is and I'll present no evidence on it.

Objective Ad Hominem fallacy:
1. Claim A is made
2. Person B attacks the nature of Claim A but provides no evidence against it.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

for example:
"Then tell me why pathology has absolutely nothing to do with therapeutics and we quickly enter into insoluble problems, because 1) allopathy is obviously just self-admitted quackery and should be totally banned from human contact, just as Oliver Wendel Holmes said, and 2) they have all five basic assumptions about medicine totally wrong and thus also all of their conclusions (i.e., therapeutic procedures and results) understandably wrong and effete."

But the biggest fallacy on this thread is the Burden of Proof fallacy, you see this thread is on homeopathy, how does homeopathy work? This is not “all the little flaws and oddities of allopathic medicine” thread. If you want I will make multiple post long counter arguments against your claims on allopathic medicine but I have a life and don’t have the time for that right now, but that’s not the problem the problem is you first need to explain to us how homeopathy works and how successful it is. The burden of proof here is on Homeopathy not allopathic medicine.
 
monkey pox is also a genetically distinct species and is far less fatal then small pox, but that’s off topic the topic is the nature of Homeopathy.
 
MRC Hans,

Now, to find out if some treatment does that, we seem to need to test it. This test seems to be the same no matter if the treatment is homeopatic, snake oil, or a product of the modern medical industry:

1) Find patients with the disease in question.
2) Apply treatment.
3) Find out if the patients got better.

Especially in stage #3 there are a number of caveats:
- Placebo effect (patients feel better without objectively being better)
- Reporting bias (Patients report feeling better to please the doctor, or the opposite)
- Interpretation bias (persons interpreting results may not be totally objective)

All these kinds of "noise" are effectively eliminated by the double-blind placebo control method. Neither patients nor testers know which patients had the substance under test till results are collected and interpreted.

The main problem is the definition of the term "the disease".
In Homeopathy, the "disease" is not the disease-agent but a failure of "disease management" in the body, since this system should be able to overcome ALL disease, without symptoms. And there are a very large number of possibly faults in this system. So, how can there be a "control" starting point?
 
The control are people with similar symptoms or the same disease. We try to cure the disease in the experimental group with our treatment that we are testing. Depending on how the experimental group compares to the control we can determine if the treatment works, does nothing or is harmful.

Homeopathy is based of the body healing all problems, how do they deal with genetic diseases? The bodies natural state in these cases may even be fatal.
 
Mr Fetus,
Homeopathy is based of the body healing all problems, how do they deal with genetic diseases? The bodies natural state in these cases may even be fatal.

Anybody who makes it through early childhood could not possibly have a significant genetic disease fault in their "disease management".
 
Hahahha lets give classic example here: Thalassemia major (beta) life span without treatment average about 25 years, only treatment is blood transfusion and bone marrow transplants. The problem is 2 defective copies of hemoglobin beta gene (there are 4 copies total) explain to me how holistic medicine can cure this disease?
 
The control are people with similar symptoms or the same disease. We try to cure the disease in the experimental group with our treatment that we are testing.

CONTROL? That is still the devil of a problem. We are all genetically different, with the possibility of 1000's of subtle differences and weaknesses in our "disease management".

In homeopathy, the "patient" is treated, not the "disease agent" which may or may not be responsible for the symptom presentation in the patient. The DISEASE does not exist in homeopathy unless you mean the fault in the patient's disease management.

Dr Hahnemann once said, "There are no diseases, but sick people."

You said "similar symptoms", but in homeopathy, symptoms include every single kind of effect or manifestation of the illness..can run into 1000's for each patient, carefully gathered by the doctor before being matched to the most appropriate of nearly 3,000 tested Homeopathic medicines.

The medicine manipulates the fault in the patient's disease management such that it is able to use its many resources to overcome the disease (and it does have resources to eradicate ALL disease).
 
and that the probelm with homopathy many disease are in fact cause by a agent and it true the everyone is didfrent o ne indivdial level that way some treatment work on only some of the people. again i aks how does homopathy cure disease please give examples

see you tonight bye
 
Mr Fetus,

Re. Thalassemia major and other extremely rare genetic conditions that don't get you as a fetus or as a baby.

These are to be excluded from the ALL list. There are 100's of chronic conditions affecting many millions of people that Homeopathy CAN cure.

With Thal. major, Homeopathy could certainly help the patient by pushing the homeostatic processes as far as is possible. The long-term prospects with this treatment are unknown for these unfortunate people.

We should be focusing on the masses who CAN BE helped, where conventional medicine has failed.
 
so homeopathy is limited then? also what is the success rate of homeopathy, especial compared to allopathic medicine.
 
Mr Fetus,

Disease Management

(Instead of the Immune System, the term "Disease Management" (DM) will be used in this discussion because there is believed to be a centre in the Brain which works together with the immune system to manage diseases).

The Healthy person's DM has the resources to heal virtually all disease conditions, and do so even before symptoms present, with the person being completely unaware of the disease. In very rare circumstances, e.g., plague, the Healthy DM may become overwhelmed and symptoms present, temporarily. In this case, one remedy would likely be the the best choice for all those suffering, at least initially. (If complications occur in some of the patients, this is an indication of some weakness in DM.)

For the vast majority of diseases, which would normally be easily conquered by the Healthy DM, the disease agent itself is very rarely the problem to be addressed, but only highlights the kind of weakness in the patient's DM. That is why the Homeopath "treats the patient, not the disease agent", i.e., he is targeting the fault in DM rather than the disease agent itself. So, the "disease" IS the fault in the patient's DM, not the "disease agent".

When Hahnemann cured acute disease conditions, (i.e., where DM was overwhelmed or in a weakened state), he noted that there was often some other underlying weakness in the DM of certain patients. When such patients become infected with disease agents, due to an inherited condition, the disease is not properly managed and remains unresolved in the patient. Over the years, this inherited weakness causes the accumulation of unresolved diseases in the patient, who becomes a "chronic disease" patient. His condition usually declines over a period of years until death, unless he can be treated effectively.

The chronic disease patient shows a symptom pattern which reveals the nature of the most prominent of these diseases, which the doctor then treats Homeopathically. When this disease resolves through the disappearance of many of its symptoms, the doctor re-evaluates the totality of symptoms, and chooses the most appropriate medicine for these symptoms. This process of re-evaluation is repeated until the patient has fully recovered.

The treatment is like a "backing out", or reversal, of the accumulated diseases, one by one.

Because the choice of medicine depends on "totality of symptoms", which guide the doctor to the choice of medicine, it is as though the Brain Centre which produces the symptoms, can only process one disease at a time, starting with the most serious. When this disease is cured, the next most serious disease presents itself through its symptom pattern. So, although there may be several diseases in the body, the Brain Centre only reveals the most serious one at any one time.

The well-chosen Homeopathic medicine is guiding, or pushing, the body's own healing processes in the right way, compensating for the fault in the patient's DM. The result is COMPLETE healing, because the body already has the resources to resolve virtually all disease.

Normally, with Homeopathic medicines, it is not possible to hurry healing processes, but only to guide them to completion. But, Hahnemann found a way to accelerate the cure of many chronic diseases, so long as some skin symptom(s) remains visible (which is often the case in the chronic diseases he treated). He would simply give many more doses, and at more frequent intervals, of the well-chosen medicine and continue with these as long as the skin symptom(s) persists. This dramatically shortened the recovery time.
So, the chronic diseases are not the result of an infective agent but are a weakness of genetic origin. In a healthy person, DM has no problems in maintaining homeostasis, promptly extinguishing any disease - a system which evolved into its almost perfect state over many millions of years.

However, being perfect is not the rule of genetics - continuous genetic variation of individuals is essential for the species to adapt to environmental stresses, and many individuals are sacrificed for that overall goal. In all our cells are 40,000 genes, each having between 2 and 200 operational versions. The combination of genes we are dealt make us unique. The DNA of these genes is translated into proteins which make and manage the 4 trillion cells of our bodies and define who we are.

The variation of genes at each generation makes us all different in constitution; we are all genetic experiments to test our suitability to the world as it is today. This is measured by whether or not we pass our genes on to the next generation. People have chronic diseases of genetic origin because their "total genetic variations" have proceeded to a level at which some metabolic or physical process of the body, such as DM, is not fully functional, AND which cannot be fully compensated for by Homeostatic mechanisms. Such weaknesses or faults in DM are exposed by specific infectious agents, causing chronic diseases.

To heal diseases such as cancer or AIDS, spending billions researching the pathology is a complete waste of time and money. The body ALREADY has the resources to resolve virtually all disease - the fact that these diseases arose at all is a reflection of some weakness in the body's disease management...if the diseases do not resolve when the patient's lifestyle is improved and all exciting factors removed, then the problem must be of genetic origin, in DM, and can be compensated for. It may be a genetic defect in a single transmitter used by Disease Management, making it less efficient. If it were anything more serious than this, then the patient would not have survived beyond early childhood.

Homeopathic medicines compensate for this particular weakness in DM, making it fully functional again, and able to use all its resources to eliminate virtually all diseases. Correct management involves a cascade of activities in the body's control systems, according to instinctual memory instructions. NO Cancer drug will ever be effective unless it acts at the top of this hierarchy of healing processes, because otherwise it will be acting against these processes.
 
Mr Fetus,

so homeopathy is limited then? also what is the success rate of homeopathy, especial compared to allopathic medicine.

Hahnemann very rarely failed with any disease. If they were hours away from death he would likely fail. Success rate has never been considered because conventional medicine does not recognise Homeopathy...it is not a contender worthy of comparison. About 90 years ago, especially in the USA, Homeopathy became the victim of a witchhunt.

Virtually all the Homeopathy hospitals were shut down. 30 years before that, Homeopathy stood above conventional medicine.

That's history. The problem today is that there are now the means to properly establish Homeopathy's mechanism and then use it to help millions (10's of millions in the USA) with many common "incurable" chronic conditions such as MS, Fibromyalgia, CFS, IBS and many many more which Homeopathy knocks on the head.

It won't happen until there is a revolution. The dominant medical system and all its supporters will always prefer to maintain the current arrangement of suppressing Homeopathy...there is too much at stake. Homeopathic medicine are dirt cheap. Hahnemann always gave them freely to his patients...got himself run out of town twice...had to resettle his family in other cities...two of his children were murdered. He was putting the pharmacies out of business.
 
Mr Fetus,

and that the probelm with homopathy many disease are in fact cause by a agent and it true the everyone is didfrent o ne indivdial level that way some treatment work on only some of the people. again i aks how does homopathy cure disease please give examples

Yes, there IS a disease agent involved but the point is, what agent? All we have to go on are a collection of symptoms the patient has (unless we have deliberately infected him).

But, the body should have resolved the disease agent without symptoms even appearing, as would happen with 99.9% of the population, who get infected with all kinds of things every single day and are unaware of it because they are resolved without presentation of symptoms, standard practice.

And if we were to try to address "a specific known disease", even then we have a problem because if several people have THAT DISEASE, and produce symptoms as a result of it (due to a fault in DM), it does not mean that they will all present the same symptom pattern (although this will usually be the case in epidemics).

Homeopathy treats the particular fault in each particular patient's DM, never a disease agent (which only highlighted the problem).
 
I most cases the agent can actually be extracted (such a viral, bacterial, Zoonotic, ect) and identified empirically. Many infectious disease of the such are not in anyway easily immune to, they can and do out match the human immune system in the majority of the human populations. Stopping what’s causing the illness and your treat the person. tell me how the homeopathy treat a bacterial infection?
 
The reason why the idea behind homeopathy is so unlikely is the dilution process- effectively it is one drop of effective agent in a solar system worth of water.
the impurities in the water would be a quadrillion times more concentrated than the introduced effective agent, so the effects of the impurities should be more noticable.
some of these impurities will be effective agents themselves
especially if the solution is made in a homeopathic clinic.
(don't tell me the vessels and the buildings are clean- have they been sluiced out with a solar system worth of water?)
this means any homeopathic preparation is just as likely to contain a different effective agent against any other illness
as it is the one you want.
well, that's no good as a treatment- it is obviously utter complete nonsense. (sorry)


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MRC Hans—

Everything you say here is wrong, and they all stem from the five basic assumptions of medicine that allopathy has totally wrong and is part of why they cannot cure:

Now, to find out if some treatment does that, we seem to need to test it. This test seems to be the same no matter if the treatment is homeopatic, snake oil, or a product of the modern medical industry:

1) Find patients with the disease in question.
2) Apply treatment.
3) Find out if the patients got better. [/ QUOTE]

There is, indeed, only one test of curative therapeutic effects, but you obviously don't yet know it and instead invoke the allopathic model despite the fact that it's pointless/useless, ridiculous, ignorant and based upon some of the erroneous assumptions that surrounds and pervades allopathic medicine.

That test is against the Law of Similars in provings (prufung = "test or trial").

Your test doesn't accomplish anything but feed the evil allopathic death machine with fuel in the form of an endless accumulation of information they don’t know what to do with, so why do it in that way and feed that monster of unnecessary suffering and death?

The five basic assumptions of medicine are about health, disease, therapeutics, the nature of existence and the nature of the universe.

You've adopted/accepted an allopathic model, based on errors in those five basic subjects of medicine, that doesn't work and yet you want to sustain it.

Would you care to explain that?

Assuming you posted because you want to know where you are wrong in order to be able to defend your views, I cannot tell your views of health, the nature of existence or the nature of the universe from what you said, but your views of disease and therapeutics makes them all allopathic, and those are somewhat easy to explain.

To refer to “the disease” means that you believe diseases can be named such that it has something to do with therapeutics, but that is wrong.

It's a common mistake too, for most people are allopathically conditioned to such constructs, which is readily apparent in their terminology and reactions to words (hence, word-association tests) because those constructs cannot be defended either logically or experientially and that leaves them having been adopted only via brainwashing, conditioning, indoctrination or by what is also called “education,” because they all refer to accepting information from external sources by certain similar techniques of thought manipulation rather than one arriving at conclusions based upon sound assumptions tested both logically and experientially.

Specifically, diseases as diagnostic categories do not actually exist in the world, for they are a statistical abstraction based solely upon the symptoms that large numbers of people have in common, called the common symptoms, but all actual patients also have the all-important uncommon symptoms that solely lead to an unambiguous remedy diagnosis or prescription.

Hence, nobody has ONLY those common symptoms, so those disease-diagnostic categories do, indeed, have nothing to do anything that actually exists.

Allopaths cannot determine a remedy diagnosis (“to thoroughly know” something) because they don’t understand the nature of therapeutics since they are, in turn, stuck on the notion of mechanisms of diseases and drugs at the level of cellular biology, which erroneous assumptions exist because Rationalist allopathy developed out of and relies upon the natural sciences that indicate reductionism and mechanism are basic features of causes and effects.

These things are true as regards pathology, but they do not have anything to do with therapeutics, for another set of natural laws governs that as the four Laws of Therapeutics with the Law of Similars in the center.

It is incredible to us how scientists en masse can ignore these other natural laws when it is supposed to be what they're searching for intrinsic of being scientists.

Again, this notion of causes and effects in the mechanism of cells presupposes that causes of disease have something to do with therapeutics, but nobody can tell you why that's so, and they forget that causes are irrelevant once diseases make themselves manifest as system-wide disorders even if they appear to be local, for such local disorders cannot arise unless there is a system-wide breakdown in homeostasis that allows for ever-lowering homeostasis until death finally supervenes.

Stipulated, causes of diseases are relevant unless they take the position of sustaining causes, in which case their removal doesn't mitigate other than irritant causes at that stage.

A simple example is bunions and calouses from poorly fitting or structured shoes and/or jobs that keep one on their feet all day long.

Removal of a proximate cause can prevent diseases, and removal of a sustaining cause can allow a homeopathic prescription -- i.e., a medicine homeopathic to the case, in this usage not referring to homeopathic medicines in the generic sense, which of course can be used in an allopathic way according to mere disease names – to act properly since sustaining causes of disease are also disease agents and influences, just as are also proximate causes of diseases.

In the simple case of poorly fitting shoes or being on one’s feet all day long, these things can eventuate into disease states affecting one generally as well as locally/particularly, for they can be debilitating to the point of making walking tiresome to the person, not just painful to their feet.

Other examples easily exist to demonstrate that the allopathic mania about causes are fruitless and always will be pointless searches since the attributed causes of diseases discovered by allopaths down through history have always later on ended up being mere effects.

Moreover, given a proper understanding of the nature of existence and the nature of the universe, any cause of disease in the physical world, unless it be a pathogen (ignoring immune-system immaturity, dysfunction and full compromise) or something that’s avoidable (like well-fitting shoes and work not requiring one to be on their feet all day long), will always be an effect of cause at the Ætheric level of existence.

In short, causes of diseases can precipitate from either direction.

This is where allopathic Minds dissociate, for the mere mention of the Ether for some reason gets your back hairs up, despite the fact that Newton had no trouble with higher planes of existence since he coined the term ”Ætherial Medium.”

Here we enter into the fact that physicists, while historically being total mechanists inanely opposed to higher planes of being due to it smacking of religion (showing how little scientists understand religion as a series of illegitimate doctrines of legitimate religious philosophies) have inadvertently proven the existence of the Æther over the last 20 years and given us over twenty synonyms of it and major manifestations of the Ætheric Plane of existence or 2nd nutational octave of existence.

I shall first name some of the synonyms: virtual particles, tachyons, deltrons, the vacuum energy of empty space, quintessence from string theory, Einstein’s cosmological constant and DeBroglie’s subquantic medium; now some major manifestations of it: Chiu’s neutrino flux, H.C. Dudley’s neutrino sea, blackbody radiation and cosmic microwave background radiation.

I don’t carry around a list of them but wish I did at time like this, for there are lots more.

But I think that suffices for this posting for at least a week.


Tim and I are here looking for help to resolve a major mystery in homeopathy.

Our drugs should not have effect but do, and we want to know if a scientific mechanism can be discovered from people with big brains either being familiar with findings that have been shelved about water chemistry or simply because they spot the explanation.

Homeopathic pharmacology produces subAvogadrean drugs.

We call them ultramolecular drugs, and I call them etheric medicines.

These things should not have effects but do.

Tim and I have two opposite approaches to this enigma.

His is in search of the mechanism, likely involving electromagnetism and water chemistry.

My part of it is more esoteric since the result is subAvogadrean medicines that requires an explanation after the mechanism has been established, for that explanation is just speculation till we know something has happened that can be proven.

Anybody know of any lost or shelved literature on water chemistry or electromagnetism that could explain why vigorous shaking of serial dilutions could make homeopathic potencies medicinal?

This is a very old mystery.

I hope somebody here has some ideas.

We will hang out a while and answer whatever questions you have about homeopathy while hoping somebody knows something important we are unaware of.

Thank you.
 
WellCookedFetus says:

Hahnemannian,

True we have nothing that stop virii we do have preventative measure such a vaccines, and ant-viral be we do have cures for many chronic or psychiatric diseases. Just because allopathic medicine is not perfect does not mean is not superior; please tell me how holistic medicine has cured the above at a high success rate.

First of all, vaccines as a preventative are a lie, and they actually produce diseases not only immediately but long term.

Anti-viral drugs are a farse; there's no such thing yet.

And, I repeat, there are also no allopathic cures for any chronic or psychiatric cases, and this is not kept quiet about either; they merely get away with naming hundreds or perhaps even thousands of chronic diseases as "incurable" without telling us that they all are.

Next, homeopathy is the only holistic therapy, it is NOT part of the so-called "alternative therapies," for those are all part of what is traditionally classed as Empiricist allopathy, while modern is traditionally part of Rationalist allopathy.

You will discern this from Article 52 of the ORGANON OF MEDICINE (http://homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/organon.html), and then take that fact to Harris Coulter's DIVIDED LEGACY, Vol. III, and realize that our historian seems to have not read that passage, for he insists as part of his thesis for that work and others that homeopathy IS part of the "Empirical medical tradition."

Not true.

That said, Hahnemannian homeopaths are surrounded by low-potency pseudo-homeopaths in the approximate ratio of 1:10,000 and by high-potency pseudo-homeopaths in the approximate ratio of 1:100.

Hahnemannian homeopathy has cured all diseases in exactly the same way: via the Law of Similars.

It is a natural law, and it seems to be part of the fabric of space from Creation for this very purpose.

You will find how in the ORGANON OF MEDICINE.

Key in on Article 153.

----------

Then you said:

the problem is you first need to explain to us how homeopathy works and how successful it is. The burden of proof here is on Homeopathy not allopathic medicine.

But that's already been done, and nearly 200 years ago too, in the ORGANON OF MEDICINE.

The fact that allopaths have not examined it and tested it is more than well known.

The subsequent evidence is all of our clinical verification of the method.

If you want to give us some of that multi-billions of dollars every year wasted on allopathic research, we'll see if it can be established via experimental science.

But I point out that homeopathy is applied science, not experimental science, and it is the actual SCIENCE OF MEDICINE due to its 10 Laws of Medicine, so there are very easy ways to prove homeopathy, the first being high-potency self-provings to establish the verity of homeopathic pharmacology.

Why have none of the people who have supposedly tested homeopathy NEVER engaged in this sole test of homeopathy?
 
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River-wind says:

"Unlike smallpox, monkeypox causes swollen lymph nodes. The incubation period for monkeypox is about 12 days..."

I'm willing to provisionally accept that, for the source of the notion was Walene James's quoting of somebody else I don't presently recall.

The issue of smallpox is problematic for anti-vaccination arguments, but the fact is that epidemics come and go, and Thomas McKeown established with graphs from mortality tables in THE ROLE OF MEDICINE that vaccines are NOT responsible for the disappearance of any disease and, in fact, cause rises in their incidence.

The long-term issues of vaccines are seen in homeotherapeutics, for the time-element of Hering's Law of Cure well establishes that many cases have their origins in vaccines.

Vaccines are 100% evil, and we will not budge on this no matter how we may occassionally mess up our arguments as I did by attempting to explain the disappearance of smallpox to changing the name.

I will look into your references, and I will expect them to be accurate, but the fact remains that epidemics come and go and vaccines have never been established to be responsible for their disappearance.
 
WellCookedFetus says:

The control are people with similar symptoms or the same disease.

There's no such thing; nobody has ever had or will ever have the same symptoms or the same disease.

That is an allopathic falacy.

Even the relatively fixed diseases called childhood diseases vary with time in their common symptoms, but every case is forever unique due to its uncommon symptoms and the unique manifestations of them.

They just look similar.

I understand that allopathic Minds cannot conceive of this, but it is true, and Hahnemann was the first person who noticed this.

You will find that repeated several times in THE LESSER WRITINGS OF SAMUEL HAHNEMANN.
 
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