On Nothing in a void.

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    Oh, so if you "know", then that's it and there's nothing much to argue about. Thanks for revealing the truth to us all.
    Still, you'll excuse me if I think you just believe you know. I can only engage in a conversation from this assumption. That, too, is logic.
    So, I don't think you've studied logic properly so-called. You don't seem even to understand the expression. You could well have carried out your own investigation of logic properly so-called but I doubt that.
    Instead, I think all you have done is to be a good student and study not logic itself but methods and systems of logic, and most likely those put forward since the end of the 19th century by people like Frege, Russell, Carnac etc. and even more likely just the current versions of those methods and system. So, not logic properly so-called itself. Instead, formal systems of logic and their methods. Good, you might even be a specialist of that for all I know. Congratulation.
    Me, I'm interested in logic properly so-called. I'm not interested much in the things you may be a specialist of because I never found any convincing justification that these methods you may be a specialist of represent properly our sense of logic, and therefore anything at all since we don't know of any logic properly so-called that would exist outside our own sense of logic.
    Still, I'm open to the idea I missed this justification. I looked for it. I found only one. well written and clearly written by specialists but clearly bogus on second reading. I would assume that if any such justification existed, it would be very easy to come across some version of it just like it's rather difficult to miss entirely any expression of the usual justification for the scientific method.
    So, I'm all ears. The question is: Can you provide a justification of the system and method of logic you know as the method and system that we should use and why we should use it?

    The logic of human reasoning.
    If you don't know what it is, Aristotle 2,500 years ago provided a formal system that seems to fit the bill. Nobody has improved on it for 2,500 years. No even modern mathematicians.
    So, I'm prepared to be lax and accept "logic" to be the name both for "the branch of philosophy concerned with analysing the patterns of reasoning by which a conclusion is properly drawn from a set of premises, without reference to meaning or context" and for "a particular method of argument or reasoning". However, I want a proper justification for why the resulting system and method of logic should be used and why.

    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 8:04 AM
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  3. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    Not really, no.
    Certainly not as far as we know, including the experts. All we can say reasonably is that our mathematical models are very useful and seem therefore very good descriptions of the physical world. At best, you could say that the properties of the physical world seems to be mathematisable. That in itself doesn't make these properties "mathematical properties" at all. Only our models are properly called mathematical.
    And also, I would assume that subjective experience is a reality and I don't think we know of any mathematical model for that yet.
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  5. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    And who do you think cares about that?

    As for your example of "properly so-called" logic
    You say human reasoning hasn't improved on Aristotle? Not even George Boole managed it?
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  7. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    I asked you something.
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Cause and Effect is a mathematical equation of values and functions. Quantum Mechanics are mathematical processes of values and functions. Check out this interesting link;

    Most Cosmologists get a feeling of "discovery" when an equation proves to match an action in reality.

    The fact that mathematics can be used to predict cause and effect proves that reality is an interaction of specific values and specific universal functions fundamentally constitute a mathematical process.

    This is why human mathematics is considered the greatest scientific "discovery" of universal functions.
    Yes we do, it is a quantum process of microtubules in the brain. (Hameroff, Penrose)
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 1:26 PM
  9. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    I don't need to add anything to what I already said. Read it again if you want to understand my response.
    Still, I can't stop you. Enjoy.
    Oh, so they must have received the Nobel prize for that mind-boggling discovery? Which year?
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    If mathematics descibe universal values and functions by mathematical "equations", then the reverse is true also, no?
    It took Einstein 10 years to receive a Nobel award and it wasn't for GR. Did that mean during that time GR was a triviality, to be ignored? Are you telling me that only a Nobel prize winners warrant serious consideration?

    The Hameroff hypothesis is being developed and shows great promise as more and more scientists are getting involved in the study of quantum computing (wave collapse) in micro-tubules, producing sentient experience in the organism.

    In furtherance of my interest in Hameroff's research in sentience and it's connection to quantum mechanics, support and collaboration from Roger Penrose is not an insignificant fact.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 9:20 PM
  11. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    I thought about this question although not for very long.

    Firstly there is no single "system and method of logic". As to a "system that we should use and why", why do electronics engineers use circuit logic? Why do astronomers use "spectral logic"? The choice of a formal system of logic as an analytical tool is simply a matter of choice.

    Electronics engineers generally use a logic based on voltages--an electric field--rather than magnetic potentials, although there isn't any reason the latter would be as useful except for the kinds of measuring devices needed. A logic should not depend on the physical basis, that is.
  12. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    I can see that in your reply.
    Exactly. So, since there's however just one logic of human reasoning, how do we know which system and method of formal logic could be taken as a proper model of human reasoning?
    Sure, but that wasn't my point. I already said that:
    Similarly, you have the logic of love making or football hooliganism, and that of any activity humans have and for which it may be convenient to develop a formal system to model the field. I don't see any difference between that and mathematics. As I already said, it's a very different sense of the word. The analogy is that the logic I am talking about is the logic of the human mind in the same sense as the logics you are limited to are the logics of various technical fields. The analogy is real but the human mind isn't a technical field. You can't do anything without using your mind. Astronomers may be using "spectral logic", whatever that is, but they also have to use their mind and the logic of their mind in order to be able to use spectral logic.
    Anyway, thanks for making clear here you don't know of any justification for using any system and method of formal logic as representative of the logic of human reasoning. That's what I thought.
  13. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    No. The physical world isn't a description.
    Sorry but I fail to see how quantum computing, or any computing at all, could explain how matter could give rise to subjective experience.
    I can only guess that you are confusing two very different questions.
    One is broadly that of how the brain could operate (or compute) a real-time model of the physical world. It may be the case that Penrose an others have shown how to go about this question, I just don't know but that wasn't my question.
    The second question, usually referred to as the "Hard Problem of Consciousness", is that of how matter could give rise to our subjective experience.
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    It's functions are indicative. An equation is a two way street, no?
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018 at 6:26 PM
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    In principle no different than the "Hard Problem of Life", how matter can give rise to living organisms.

    IMO, it's an organizational problem. Note that the brain has 3 functional levels of internal information processing and that 2 of them are not sentiently conscious but are strictly for information processing and interoceptive motor control.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018 at 6:46 PM
  16. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    Personally, I have no difficulty whatsoever conceiving that material processes produce life. The details of that are beyond the little I know but the little I know is enough to have a sense of the general process. Good enough for me. Nothing comparable with the problem of how matter as we conceive of it could possibly give rise to subjective experience as I know it.
    No. You're just repeating the same confusion. Or probably pretending you don't understand. In any case, there's nothing I could do for you. If you don't know now, you won't ever, whatever I could say.
  17. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Wait, what? Is there or isn't there a single logic, and how is that a different question to "is there a single method and system of logic?".
    Recall that you stated . . . "the system and method of logic you know as the method and system that we should use and why we should use it?". You have claimed there is a "properly so-called" logic, and it's the only logic.

    So why do you agree when I say there is no single kind, or method, of logic. A logical system is an abstraction, why should we only have one? We don't know if there is a system of logic that subsumes all others.

    However, you go on about the logic of human reasoning. Human reasoning is something that can be deduced from all the different kinds of logical abstraction humans are capable of. Presumably the hardware--the brain--functions the same way in all humans, or put another way we all have the same kind of circuitry.

    If you're talking about neurology and trying to decode brain signalling mechanisms, we aren't very far down that road. We have logical models of such things, of course (we have computers!), but not much idea of how different they are from real brains.
    Nay, I say instead all systems, methods, and kinds of logic are representative of that which we call human reasoning. It just makes more sense to me, than "there can be only one".
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018 at 9:10 PM
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Apparently you cannot visualize vizualization in the brain....hehe.
    Interoception only warns the brain when something has gone wrong internally. Usually this is processed (experienced) as pain or discomfort. This really is no different than the ability to experience the external environment and consciously observe and process wavefunctions received by our senses at the third level, which the only level affected by anesthesia.

    When the third level has be anesthesized the person becomes a living object without conscious awareness, until the anesthesia wears off and the person becomes conscious again.

    Subjective experience is already perceived by single celled paramecia which can "learn" via their microtubules.
  19. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    George Boole's
    Binary Boolean logic, sometimes symbolised as 2, requires you to define what is meant by truth of a statement or proposition. Digital electronic logic simply maps true to a value, 1, which is defined physically as a voltage, 0 is a different voltage and whether the difference is positive or negative is a design choice.
    It's difference itself that seems to be a foundational concept.

    Boundary logic maps true to the existence of a boundary, the "existence" of a void is a contradiction, hence false. So clearly, there is a map between BL and 2. You could argue that BL generates a Boolean algebra. If the map is one to many then BL is more fundamental.

    Just because we have:
    ( ) = T = 1.
    = F = 0.​
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018 at 11:01 PM
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    As I understand it, that is what Hameroff and Penrose propose. A quantum event is the passing of a treshold, which creates a physical "bing" or a "ping" (for lack of a better term) when the quantum packet experiences a sudden change in position, rather than a smooth transition of states.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018 at 12:16 AM
  21. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    I asked you a justification for the system and method of logic you know as the one we should use. Your answer shows you don't know of any. You do know of systems you think we can use and that are useful but that's a different question.
    Still, I think I am careful enough when I express myself that you should understand without me having to repeat myself.
    We don't know but most logicians seemed to have assumed there's just one logic since at least Aristotle and certainly including modern logic with Frege, Russell and a few others. That's the basic assumption.
    The many different systems your talking about here are logics in the second sense, nothing like logic properly so-called, i.e. the logic of human reasoning. I already explained the difference. I don't think it's really complicated. If there are many logics in the second sense, then they can't all be a proper model of the logic in the first sense, i.e. the logic of human reasoning.
    Fine. Do it. Deduce.
    The logic of human reasoning cannot be deduced but it can be inferred from any reasoning people do, including thinking about football, sex, food etc. There's nothing special in logical terms about all the formal systems you seem to regard as particularly significant. There're not.
    No, I don't care much about that. I'm sure we could discover how logic is done by our neurons but to do that we will have to use our logic. See?
    Yes, football is representative of human reasoning and plotting against your enemies and deciding how you're going to use some implement to repair your car.
    Still, I think it's pretty obvious these things necessitate data about the real world and that these data come as an extra to logic. Logic properly so-called doesn't seem to much care about the real world.
    Anyway, thanks, you've answered my question, if only reluctantly. That's all there was to say on the subject.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018 at 7:52 AM
  22. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

    Sorry, you're not making sense here. It's up to you whether you want to try. I'm not going to try and decipher the runes.
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    All you need to remember is that the cilia, the little hairs on the outside of the paramecium, contain microtubules (simple quantum computers). These hairs are the sensory equipment which allows this single celled organism to navigate and find mates.

    There are billions of microtubules in the brain and skin which facilitate communication in the neural network of the brain and electrical conductance in the skin.
    When you go to the doctor and have this little clamp placed on your fingers to measure the oxygen supply, this information is provided by the microtubules in the skin. When your skin is very cold, the conductance of the microtubules goes down and the reading becomes faulty.

    As I understand it, microtubules are simple quantum computers because they are in superposed states which are required for quantum mechanics and the processing of the collapse of the wave function.

    I'm sure it's all more complicated than this, but I believe it captures some of the fundamentals.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018 at 9:00 AM

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