Open note for Moderators

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by Neverfly, Jun 1, 2012.

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  1. Balerion Banned Banned

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    So I should excuse you from moderating a member on the basis that you're busy? If the work is too much for you to handle, step down.

    First we're told to report posts, now we're being told to take matters into our own hands. I know this is a cliche, but it's true in this case: the only thing consistent about you is your inconsistency. You are an administrator, your job is to make sure the forum is moderated properly. If you don't have the time to perform all of your tasks, step down. If you don't have enough moderators, promote more. Excusing yourself from your responsibilities on account of having more than one responsibility is unacceptable in any context.

    Strawman. I never said I spotted him before you did. In fact, I wasn't even aware of him until well after others had sounded alarms. But you did say you're not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Was I supposed to overlook that and commend your impotent skepticism?

    Really? Because I could have sworn that I said the direct opposite to you in a recent (unanswered) private message:

    Clearly I'm not interested in banning people for disagreeing with me. In this case, I'm looking for a poster to receive an infraction for telling me to "fuck off." In fact, wasn't steampunk banned for telling several posters to "go fuck themselves?" Ah, but there's that consistency thing again.

    This is one huge straw man. I never asked anyone to moderate anyone for disagreeing with my politics. I asked you to moderate Gustav for telling me to fuck off, and Wynn for not supporting factual claims made about me. There is precedence for both of those actions drawing bans/infractions, but you're acting like I'm asking you to do something untoward.

    And I'm not educated in the sciences. I leave scientific discussions and debates to the experts. That's why I hang out in the political and philosophical fora, where I feel whatever common sense I do have might be of some use. And I also understand those are usually the hardest forums to moderate. But all I ever ask is for those forums to be held to the same standard as others in terms of discourse. In other words, no telling people to go fuck themselves or fuck off, and no making factual claims without something to support them. For example, telling me I have faith and then flatly refusing to explain oneself. In other words, I'm just asking you to do your job.

    It's a pity that my main haunt is moderated by an absentee moderator. You want to know why nothing of any value is discussed there? Because you don't keep the trolls in line. Any discussion of worth is immediately derailed by Jan or Wynn or LG, and no one holds them to any of the standards posters are held to in other forums. How many times have I seen posters banned from science forums for posting "meaningless nonsense" in the past, while the administrator of the website encourages that very thing in another forum through his inaction?

    If only you put as much effort into moderating as you did into misrepresenting my complaint, this would be a markedly better community.

    We're talking about you, not the moderators. But yes, I think you've got some good eggs here. I'm kind of a Superstring groupie. I was a huge fan of Skinwalker. Me and Bells are good, after all that ugly business at the start. I won't pretend I care for Tiassa, but other than his strictness on anything criticizing Islam, he's more than fair. AlphaNumeric is a saint for putting up with Reiku in all of his iterations. I'm sure I'm missing a few, and some others I fail to mention intentionally, but I don't think it's fair to say I don't say anything positive about the moderators. The problem is mostly their leadership.
     
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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Again, if the job's too hard, leave it. No one is making you stay.

    And in the case of Gustav, who mostly just follows me around to make sarcastic quips, it's really not hard to see the context of "fuck off, jdawg." Not that context should be required for such a comment, especially on a forum that moderates excessive vulgarity and personal insults (it's both vulgar and insulting, in case you weren't following along). Meanwhile, we moderate "I'll give him a reacharound." Makes total sense...
     
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Balerion:

    The member you want moderated has been banned for 3 days. How many times do you need to be informed? The work of keeping you up to date may be too much for me to handle.

    You talk a lot about straw men, but apparently can't recognise the ones you post yourself. I have made no excuses.

    I think that probably the main problem you're having is that you expect me to moderate the rules you would like or imagine that we have, rather than the rules we actually have. You see inconsistency because you think that the rules extend further than they actually do. So, something is moderated because it falls on one side of the actual line, while something else is not. But you think the line ought to be in a different place, so you see the second instance as an inconsistency in moderation.

    I know that when you talk about moderating the forum "properly" you really just mean "according to how Balerion thinks it should be done, with Balerion's preferred rules in place". Perhaps if you were a little more constructive about things, you'd be a moderator here yourself and you could show us all how it's done. But you've carved out a niche as a whiner instead.

    As to my use of my own time, I have many responsibilities that are quite separate from this forum and, franky, a lot more important to me. I am not paid to administrate this forum. Believe it or not, I do it for fun.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    If sciforums is high on your own list of personal priorities, I suggest that a re-evaluation may be in order. There are more important things in life than the internet, believe me. And I will allocate my own personal time as I please. I will not be bullied by you.

    I am also very capable of appointing new moderators when and where they are necessary or desirable, thankyou. I am also quite aware of our current requirements in terms of staff.

    You should have read my link on procedural fairness.

    He was banned for 3 days. And yes, given an infraction point, which always goes with a ban.

    I can't recall the wynn thing. I assume I investigated whatever the issue was at the time. Probably we corresponded about the matter; I don't recall.

    We don't have a rule about unsupported claims, by the way (and I've said that before, too). Knowingly telling lies is on the books, but that's a different thing. If somebody makes an unsupported claim, you can point it out in the relevant thread.

    This is the kind of over-expectation that I mentioned earlier. We will never moderate an issue like "telling me I have faith then flatly refusing to explain oneself". What on earth do you expect a moderator to do about something like that? Tell the poster "You must prove that Balerion has faith, and explain yourself in detail, or be banned for a month!" We're not your lap dogs, Balerion. Fight your own battles. If somebody tells you you have faith and you don't, you can do this: write a post in reply saying "I don't have faith. You're wrong about that!" And if somebody doesn't explain themselves, try posting: "Can you explain yourself?", or even "That makes no sense. Want to try explaining yourself?" Why do you need a moderator to post for you?

    As far as I can see, Jan, wynn and LG are all quite eloquent posters. I violently disagree with their opinions on a number of topics, but they do post coherently. What you want here seems to be censorship of people you disagree with, or who won't play the game the way you want it played, by your rules. Tough luck, Balerion. Welcome to life without mummy.

    The real problem is that you're not getting what you want all the time. Right?
     
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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

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    He wasn't banned for telling me to fuck off, which is a problem. But it's contextual, right? And that would require effort. All of two minutes' worth.


    Sure you did. You went on about how you're busy eliminating spam, and in this thread talk about how your time is divided between this and your real-life responsibilities. These are your explanations for why you can't do your job properly.

    Apparently not, because the religion forum has needed one for a few years, and you aren't cutting the mustard.

    I did.

    Not for his actual offense, of course.

    We didn't. I even sent you a follow-up PM a week later, which also received no response. Must be all that spam-fighting.

    Yet Superstring moderated RedStar for exactly that. No, excuse me, he threatened to moderate him for that, and then RedStar actually supported his claim. Again, this was all in the PM I sent you. String's actions are what I based my complaint on. Now you're saying that your own moderators aren't doing it right?

    Again, this was all addressed in the PM. I did exactly that. I took care of it myself, and I asked for her to be moderated. See, I can actually perform multiple tasks. I can, say, respond to a troll and report their post. I can carry on a conversation with someone who has offended me while also asking for a moderator to look into the matter. I'm not asking anyone to fight my battles. I'm asking them--drumroll please--to do their jobs. What you want is to not have to do any of that.

    I will have to object to your use of the word "eloquent." Jan especially can barely form coherent sentences. Wynn and LG are more articulate, but eloquent? Hardly.

    Again, straw-man (I'm just going to write it as many different ways as possible). I'm not asking you to censor people I disagree with. I want some standard to the discourse. I don't want them to be able to make factual claims and not support them. They should not be able to troll threads, which you let all three of them get away with like crazy. So again we come to the fact that you simply don't want to be bothered. Here's a quick solution to your problem: Appoint one of your other mods to cover the religion forum and be done with it. That way we both get what we want: I get actual moderation, and you get to do nothing.

    I never get what I want here, so it wouldn't make much sense for me to complain about me not getting what I want all the time.
     
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,782
    Balerion:

    Yes he was. Among other things.

    This isn't my job. This is a hobby, as I explained to your previously. I have a real, paying job. And as for this "job", you're the only one saying I can't do it properly. I'm not, so I have nothing to make excuses for.

    Your opinion is noted. We always like to get feedback.

    I have no idea what you're on about. I thought I'd been pretty clear. And the reason he was banned is right there on the ban list.

    You're right. I didn't respond to that PM. Must have been the spam-fighting, or something.

    I believe I already pointed out to you that moderators can moderate their forums as they wish, within the guidelines we have all agreed on. And I explained the concept of judgment and discretion to you, too. Well, mentioned them in the expectation that you understood them.

    Bravo for you, and thanks for filling me in on what I want.

    What you're asking for is for a moderator to step in and read in detail every discussion on the forum, checking it for factual accuracy as well as whether posters are following the Balerion Approved Rules of Debate in Online Forums. You'll be hard pressed to find a forum like this one where moderators have the official task of fact-checking every factual claim that is made and whether whoever posted it has supported it to an Approved standard of evidence.

    If you want a Formal Debate where the Balerion Rules apply, why not challenge wynn or Jan or LG to one? We have a specific forum especially for that purpose. Of course, they'd probably decline the offer. What does that suggest to you?

    Why are you here?
     
  9. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    So let me get this straight. you are new to a forum and your way of introducing yourself is to get entrenched in attacking someone who is gone from the forum. Are we sucking up to the people who don't like neverfly? Wanna claim your running buddies straight off huh? And for the record, Gustav takes no sides. I have seen him tell everyone to fuck off equally. He makes no buddies and if he agrees with you one day he will agree, say something he disagrees with the next and he will tell you what he thinks of your remarks no holds barred.

    Gustav made a valid point. Here you whine and yap about neverfly's ability to hold a grudge yet here you are waving your antineverfly banner almost immediately upon joining the forum. Must make you feel real good about yourself. Did he step on your toes in the past? Did he hurt your feelings? Why is he so important to you that you simply MUST rant after such a long time of experiencing his personality on another forum. He must have cut you real deep and left a hideous scar for you to want to come after him like you have.

    And quite frankly your style wreaks of one who needs constant attention and validation from strangers. Or perhaps you never grew out of your petty popularity contestant teen years. You know the phase. The one where if you can make fun of someone and get some validating laughs that makes you king of the hill. Its really sad when people never grow up. So as Gustav asked before, obsessed much?
     
  10. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    ...said Neverfly's roommate.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    23,751
    Why are we still discussing a nobody who no longer posts here?

    It was funny while it lasted. But those moments are past us now. If one day he chooses to return and make threats and lose the plot again, I am sure hilarity shall ensue once more. But he is gone now.

    Move on...
     
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Why don't ch'all modernaters lock the thread?
     
  13. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    See Oystein, you will see that while Balerion (formerly known as JDawg) whines about neverfly complaining about moderator behavior, he turns and does the same when someone is picking on po wittle JDawg. Because he is in fact the troll of trolls. If you think Neverfly is bad, meet Balerion. The hypocrite of all time. He will insult you and call you names then try to get you banned for doing the same to him, even if you haven't, but will twist your words anyway he possibly can, or can't even, to make his point. His argument doesn't even have to make sense and his words do not hold the same definition as the rest of us. He writes his own dictionary and cannot resist the opportunity to get into a pissing contest for the sake of derailing a post. He has even trolled and derailed his own threads, he is that good at trolling. So he is pretty much not worth conversing with.

     
  14. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153

    For all the criticism you give neverfly, you sound just like him in this post. Are you on his side now?
     
  15. Balerion Banned Banned

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    All true. 'Specially the part about writing my own dictionary.

    For example:

    seagypsy [see-jip-see]
    noun

    1. a roommate of Neverfly, esp. romantic
    2. someone who misspells things angrily
    3. Chiefly British. slang. a piece of smelly cheese; munster
     
  16. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    Thank you Bells, excellent suggestion. Considering how he posted against you, I would not have expected you to be the one to suggest this.

    And to you, Balerion, why don't you take the advice you gave to neverfly, and stop bitching about something that will never change. You have told me indirectly to fuck off many times and insulted me on many occasions, misrepresented my words, made false claims and refused to clarify yourself or provide support for your remarks in arguments with me. You did not get moderated for your behavior. So stop trying to get people banned for behaving like you. IMO, if James did his job as you require him, you would likely be banned on day one of doing so.
     
  17. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    I never misrepresented your words, hon. The worst I did was misunderstand them, and that was likely because they were all spelled incorrectly.

    Take your own advice and quit crying about someone telling the truth about your boyfriend. He's a troll. Deal with it.
     
  18. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    I think this is the first time you have ever conceded. I'll be baking some cookies in your honor.

    It's nice to know your only complaint on me is that you don't like who I am married to and that I misspell words occasionally, though I don't misspell any more frequently when angry than when not angry. Actually, I don't tend to type when angry.
     
  19. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153

    See there you go misrepresenting now. I never complained about someone talking about my HUSBAND. You are entitled to your opinion. I simply questioned the motive of the person doing it. And I expressed my opinion of you, which ironically seemed to coincide with James R's summation of you on many points.

    I misspelled? Very weak argument, schnuckems. Let's hope you NEVER misspell anything from here on out. Perhaps Neverfly at times behaved in a way that would be easily interpreted as trolling. But then so do you on a regular basis. I do "deal" with it everyday. I can handle it. Apparently YOU are the one that can't deal with it. And all your whining about him makes you look and sound just like him when he is at his worst. Ever consider taking the higher road, Bells has set a great example for that. You say you are good with her. Follow her example and let it go.
     
  20. Chipz Banned Banned

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    838
    Nobody else found it hilarious Fraggle Rocker referred to insults as a "diss"?
     
  21. Gustav Banned Banned

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    yup
    two trolls start a flamewar


    two troll killers protest....

    ...very much in vain....

     
  22. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    3,149
    Ooooh, can I play too?

    Balerion [unpronounceable]
    noun

    1. a more sophistamucated, and less "ghetto," version of JDawg
    2. someone who misspells "muenster" whilst drawing attention to another's alleged misspelling
    3. Chiefly Kobaïan. slang. a particularly smelly piece o' dragon poo
     
  23. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Well, here's the deal. We've been busy here, lately. We suffered the loss of a very dear and personal member of our family. One that was way too soon in coming. It was sudden and painful and frankly I had neither time nor interest to deal with the forum drama.
    Only two years old and we had to say goodbye. The Vet said, "There's nothing we can do." Sign a paper, swipe a credit card. Some propofol, heavy barbituates, "And... He's gone."


    Prior to this, I let my thoughts be known. Harshly and without inhibitions. For this, I received a ban and infraction. Not surprising- I earned it... After which, JamesR wrote a rebuttal, that was shut and locked and stuffed into the Cess Pool. Well, now...

    Well, I planned at the time to write my own rebuttal- one with links, quotes and the like- All I needed to do was search the forum, find the relevant material and link them. I started out by putting my thoughts to his post on a notepad the day after the ban begun...
    Now, I'm hurting and I just don't give a shit. So, I'm going to dump whatever it was on notepad in a quote of myself, here:
    So, there you go. I didn't really bother reading over what I said then- forgive any typo's, grammar nazi's of the forum...

    Bells, I insulted you. I find your inciting of flame wars disgusting, that you get away with it more disgusting. I'd rather not always fight with you, but you make that utterly impossible because you accuse me of Motives and things I simply did not say and since you're a moderator- it's worsened. It's tiresome and you should just STOP. I'm not obligated to agree with your entire world view- I'm my own man, with my own opinions and views and your hateful attacks only demonstrate a disturbing amount of intolerance from you.


    JayDawg or Balerion or Cheerio or whatever you're going by these days- I insulted you. 'nuff said.


    JamesR, I insulted you. I've spelled out why in what I copied from that notepad file above. I won't bother doing background work, right now... I have more important things on my mind. This is simply a Token Effort and move on. I dislike leaving it hanging and since SeaGypsy was telling me about the thread- I figured I may as well pop in, say my piece and pop out.

    Take it or leave it. All of you can take it or leave it. You can think about how terrible a person I am. You can try to pick the posts apart and convince people I'm just "so wrong..." You can look for the validity in my words, as well. I rather doubt you will.

    One thing I've looked at recently- While we're sitting here on the interweb, feeling self-righteous and indignant, real life is going on... Real events with real people and many of them drag out hard, tough, difficult and painful choices. Our opinions matter. Even when one particular member may find another opinion, "abhorrent," -they still have a right to it. They can influence readers. They can create an area where people can see many points of view. This is hindered when certain members take it upon themselves to twist words, and hammer people that have different opinions about world events. It is hindered when we break down to squabbling and it is hindered when there is poor moderatorship.

    So- words said. That's a fine thing... I'm going to go back to mourning now; Over one who didn't slam others for opinions or really say much of anything and yet managed to say so much without speaking.





    Oh and Oystein? Blow it out your ass.
     
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