# Perpetual Machine using magnetic artificial muscle

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by ismu, Jan 29, 2002.

1. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468
Artificial Muscle (AM) have been studied and developed by several institutes and colleges. They'll gonna use it for robot's actuator. But i got idea to use it to tap energy from magnet.

http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/muscle/papers/
http://ndeaa.jpl.nasa.gov/nasa-nde/lommas/
http://www.mpg.de/news99/news26_99.htm

AM take a benefit from rapid volume changes of material caused by changes of it's environment, such as temperature, pH, electric current, electro-static field, and also magnetic field! They're now seems more intens to develop AM based on pH changes.

There is several things very interresting to me is that:
1) AM tension can be activated by magnet.
2) almost there is no permanent chemical structure changes in the material during it's usage. In other words AM have very long lasting endurance.
3) even it's reaction to the activating signal relatively slow, it's force strength to pull is very huge, because it's depends on strength of solid material used as AM itself.

Based on those facts, i inspired to design "perpetual engine" using magnetic based AM The concept is very simple:
-set two AM in oppsite position to pull each other.
-use a magnet to activate one of the AM
-use the motion created by AM to switch the magnet to activate opposite AM.

(please take a look at animated gif attached). This picture is only concept to describe the idea. Real machine may have diferrent architechture. Of course the frequency of this machine should be set according to AM elasticity, response-time, and mass of each components.
Notice that earth gravity is nothing to do with this device's works. The device shown in the picture attached should also works in horizontal position or any other position. Gravity will only 'annoying' this device if it stands vertically.

Then we can take some benefit of power from it's back & forth motion between those two AM by other mechanism such as cam-gear (wich works as mechanical diode), or piston and valves, or else, to drive generator.

I knew this device might be violent to thermodynamic law. So I like to hear some review from experts here, is this device can really works?

Last edited: Jan 29, 2002

3. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
This would not be a perpetual motion machine, and you could not get free energy out of it.

First, in the configuration you have shown in the animation, there would be frictional effects on bearings and the attachments of the artificial muscles which would dissipate energy as heat. So, gradually the pendulum swing would slow down and stop.

Second, if you attached some kind of device to your "engine", that device would create a load on the initial energy supply, which would quickly slow the thing to a stop, unless there was further energy input from an external source.

Finally, you should be aware that no perpetual motion machine can exist, since this would be in contravention of the second law of thermodynamics.

5. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468
another explanation

Yup. i also thought that device to collecting energy from ZPE not as simple as my "machine".

But please teke a look more carefully on these points:
<strong>
- this is <u>not a pendulum</u>. even it's looks like pendulum. it can work in <u>horizontal</u> position. the frequency tuning i mention is only to set such <u>natural frequency</u> of this system.
- the volume is changed by <u>environmental changes</u> suroundings artificial muscle material. it's kind of adding <u>catalyst</u> to the material to change it's own molecular properties.
- the motion we'll be taken is came from <u>volume changes</u> of <u>solid material</u> which is very strong! small, or ever greater friction wouldn't bother.
</strong>

I'll try to give another example of this method. Imagine that there are two boxes stay close to each other. One of the box close to the wall (like this: [wall][box1][box2]). If we heating up first box, the second box will be pushed aside -- with any friction! If then we cold down the first box to inital temperature with "ideal condition" which can take back all heat given to expand the first box, is second box back to it's initial position?
NO! the new position will be [wall][box1][space][box2].
If then we put separator which fit in space gap (like this: [wall][box1][separator][box2], and heat up and cool down the box again, we'll get: [wall][box1][separator][space][box2]. If we continue using thicker separator, the second box will move far enough.

So, if Work simply defined by Force x Distance displacement (W=F.s), where the work came form to shift the second box, if in "ideal condition" all energy to heat first box can be taken back?

So... what if we can found a material (MIT researches did) wich can easily shrinking / expands by giving and take away the magnetic flux. Is it still imposible get energy this way???

...or my explanation still doesn't clear enough?
...or someone can explain me better why it can't works?

Last edited: Jan 29, 2002

7. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
If box 2 moves, then it has absorbed energy from somewhere. Since the heating of box 1 apparently caused the movement, box 2 must have received energy from box 1. Then, when box 1 is cooled again, you won't get back all the energy you originally put into it to heat it up. Some of the energy has been dissipated in creating the space.

8. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468
that's exactly my point

That's exactly my point! Absorb from somewhere is from magnet! or molecul structure changes in artificial muscle!
If i using magnetic flux (not heat) to shrink the artificial muscle, and take away magnetic flux to let the muscle to back to it's initial length,
Isn't that called tap energy from magnet or artificial muscle itself???

Or do you think we'll unable to remove the flux by move away the magnet by using force from muscle's internal stress itself?

Or my machine still can't called as "perpetual motion machine", just a very... verry... verrry... efficient machine :-D ?

Or any other reasons it can't works at all???

Last edited: Jan 29, 2002
9. ### c'est moiall is energy and entropyRegistered Senior Member

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I think you should take a look at my m8 his website on the Adams motor

see for the 'Harwood' effect, negative potential, etc...

the adams motor when built correctly is a perpetual machine
and in accordance with quantum physics, just a logic extension when dealing with magnets

10. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
ismu,

Your system dissipates energy, which must come from somewhere. What that means is that your swinging magnet <i>must</i> gradually slow down.

c'est moi:

I had a look at the Adams motor link. The fact that it is claimed to be a perpetual motion machine rules out its legitimacy straight away. However, just to be sure I clicked on the "Principles of operation", hoping to see a decent explanation. Unfortunately, all that is there is obfuscation, misleading explanation, and a reference to a peer-reviewed scientific paper which has nothing to do with the principles of the claimed "motor".

11. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468
further thought...

I have further thought of the process that might be not contravention with thermodynamic laws, but it was still very extensive and efficient method to dig kinetic energy by using solid material.

Most of machine design (exp: steam, otto, diesel, jet) using common thermodynamic equations such as: <em>PV=NRT</em>;
<em>(P1.V1)/T1 = (P2.V2)/T2</em>, and such energy form that "can't clearly defined but can be calculated" called enthalpy --those equations which only valid for gasses--. Since any gas have equal amount of molecules if they have same temperature, volume, and pressure, it's seems easier to use gasses as media to exploit energy.

But remember that we dealing with solid material here. In solid material, their expansion defined by: <em>V1.T1.K=V2.T2.K</em>
Where <em>K</em> is expansion coefficient, specific to what kind of material it was. Also remember that solid (and also liquid) material is (fairly) incompressible. That's why it can give tremendous kinetic power. I believe that solids, gels, and liquids can "brings more enthalpy" because its density much more dense than gasses. Infact, all of our move actuated by muscle --flexible solids--, as God's perfect example for us.

Back to my machine...
Now <u>assume</u> that there such reversible chemical reaction happen in contraction and expansion of the muscle material, driven / triggered by magnetic flux.

Now, let <u>assume</u> again that the reaction can change it's molecule structures, thus changes the expansion coefficient (<em>K</em>). (Aha!!!)
By changes of K, if material stays in same temperature, it definitely has different volume. The equation will be: <em>T1.V1.K1=T1.V2.K2</em>
(It will be have same volume at certain temperature, 0 Kelvin degree perhaps [?])

This way, we can say that the material itself acts as such of "enthalpy buffer" during its reversible reaction to change its volume. The material (may be) then slowly becomes cold. The heat automatically will flows in from surroundings.
So... we've created such machine that collects heat from surroundings, and transfers it into kinetic energy which much easier to manage! (See... still follows thermodynamic law).

The key of this method is in the material to make artificial muscle. Magnetic trigger is only one way to do it. Another type of trigger can be used, as long as we stick on this method:
- Arrange (solid, gel, or liquid) artificial muscle in opposite force direction.
- Trig one of the muscle to change its volume, may both expansion and contraction.
- Tap some energy from volume changes.
- Feedback small amount of tapped energy to switch trigger to opposite muscle.
- Let surrounding environment to stabilize the process!
- Take extra energy left, it's free to use!!!

Since I don't have thermodynamic diagrams for solid materials --specially artificial muscle--, I can't determine how much surrounding environment should transfer its energy to stabilize the system. Won't loose its own stability I hope...

Well... any opinion about my thought of this very... verry... verrry... efficient machine?

Is it possibly that most of our mistake to polute our earth for centuries is exploiting energy using gasses and burnings, instead of solids and reversible chemichal reactions? (reversible can also means recycleable isn't it?)

Btw, <strong>James</strong>, do you think David Hamel's perpetual machine won't work also? is it just a "fake"?

Ps: Thanks for your prev critics <strong>James</strong>, but don't take my shoes :-D.

12. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
Another formulation of the second law of thermodynamics says that no machine can take heat from an external source and convert it entirely into useful work. There is always some "waste" energy expelled as heat. Therefore, regardless of the principle of operation of your device, it will produce waste heat when it operates to produce useful work, one way or another.

It is safe to rule out ANY claim for a perpetual motion machine on the basis of the second law of thermodynamics. There's always a problem lurking somewhere. Moreover, NO perpetual motion machine has ever been shown to work, despite many claims.

13. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468
no machine can take heat...?

How about using evaporating liquids to create works? such as let LPG gas flows out from it's tube to drive such gas turbine? the evaporated gas itself takes heat from surrounding to expands, right? it become colder and give some work to the turbine, isn't it?

How about using such mechanism that pulls energies from surrounding, instead of adding energy to such system which is commonly left some "heat residues"?

What if thermodynamics laws have some "bugs" in it? I've ever read (unfortunately i forgot where) that some people realy sure that there is anomalies of gas in extreme high temperature and pressure. Because of the limitation of measurement devices used in the time thermodynamic tables / diagrams were created, they chop the tables into what we can see now in the thermodynamics handbooks.

Last edited: Jan 30, 2002
14. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
By "machine", I mean an "engine" which works in a cyclic manner. Usually it has some type of "working fluid" which goes through a cycle and ends up in the same state as it started.

Thermodynamic laws are independent of gas laws. For example, the second law of thermodynamics can be derived from statistical arguments. The relevant field is called statistical mechanics. The laws of thermodynamics are pretty solid, on both an experimental basis and a theoretical basis as derived from macroscopic and statistical considerations.

15. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468

c'est moi,

Thanks for trying to help. But i've knew that Adam's motor is "a mistake" (in quotes).

Btw, glad to hear you also interrested in this subject. Have you ever heard about Victor Schauberger's implosion phenomenon and David Hamel's spinning disk. Try to search on search engines (if you haven't seen them). It was interresting, isn't it?

Last edited: Jan 30, 2002
16. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468
Ok

Mr James,

I think for now your explanation satisfied enough. Thanks a lot.
But, i still hope that someday, somewhere, someone, finnally inventing such device that at least has 99.99% COP

Edisson said: "I haven't failed. I've only made 1000 devices that didn't works..."

17. ### c'est moiall is energy and entropyRegistered Senior Member

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"The fact that it is claimed to be a perpetual motion machine rules out its legitimacy straight away. "

but look, the work on this website is from my friend
normally I should have gone visiting him last summer, when he was already busy with doing some experiments on the Adam's motor
hopefully, I will make it this summer

he does not do it for any commercial purposes
and the whole website is built on data gathered by experiments
so when you say that it can't be perpetual motion, then you're saying he's lying
why would he lie? he's got no reason for it
you talk about the second law, but here it is about magnets in a special situation
that's what he says, he says everbody thinks that we know everything there is to know about magnets, but his experiment directly contradicts this

his explanation of HOW it works, ie theoretically might be wrong, but if he says that his experiments show perpetual motion, then I believe it
and if he's lying about that, god knows why, then i'll know it soon enough when I go see it for myself

don't get me wrong, I only want to know the truth, I don't care what a human made law says, I only care about what I see and can measure
Tim has his MA in Physics, so he knows what he's talking about
I'm in the field of archaeology, so I lack knowledge here
maybe he should film it in action so that anyone can see it

I'm interested in "free" energy but only if it is from serious people
I hate liars
Ismu, why is the adam's motor a mistake? why would tim spend his free time in it if it doesn't work? he's had some great results, otherwise he wouldn't have carried on
again, you can all say he's lying about the experimental data, I will be able to say for 100% if it's true or not once I get my ass there myself
but of course, then you might say that I am also a liar

it's difficult, isn't it?

18. ### c'est moiall is energy and entropyRegistered Senior Member

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forgot, james, you might want to take a look at this website:
http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm

nothing but experiments

I would be happy to read some more comments from your part! (but say WHY something is not true so I can learn some more myself in this field

)

cheerzz

19. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
c'est moi,

I'm not necessarily accusing your friend of lying. Perhaps he honestly believes he has a perpetual motion machine, or a "free energy" device. However, I will bet my bottom dollar that if the input energy and output energy of his machine is accurately measured, it will be found that more energy goes in than comes out as useful work.

Possible explanations: (a) he hasn't measured the input and output carefully enough; or (b) he hasn't been careful to determine whether he has true perpetual motion as distinct from a device which takes a long time to run down; or (c) his claims are lies.

The second law of thermodynamics applies to magnets as much as to anything else. If you or your friend have studied statistical mechanics, you'd perhaps better appreciate how unassailable that law is.

20. ### c'est moiall is energy and entropyRegistered Senior Member

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have you visited JLN labs website?

"Unfortunately, all that is there is obfuscation, misleading explanation"

that's a hard claim, I would like to know why (or where)?

"and a reference to a peer-reviewed scientific paper which has nothing to do with the principles of the claimed "motor"."

you are reffering to this:

<<Extracting Energy and Heat from the Vacuum
D.C. Cole, IBM, Essex Junction, Vermont
H.E. Puthoff, IAS, Austin, Texas
Physical Review E, 1993, Vol.48, No.2, pp.1562-1565
Relatively recent proposals have been made in the literature for extracting energy and heat from electromagnetic zero-point radiation via the use of the Casimir force. The basic thermodynamics involved in these proposals is analyzed and clarified here, with the conclusion that, yes, in principle, these proposals are correct. Technological considerations for actual application and use are not examined here, however. >>

why is this misleading? he tells what it is about, it is related to extracting ZPE

I think there is no violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics at all, why we call this "free" energy is because we don't really have a clue from where it is coming
(I mean, conventional physics calls it vacuum energy, a sea of virtual energy, but maybe that is even wrong, it is an interpretation of how to explain certain experiments
people like a sansbury don't believe in vacuum energy and prefer to explain it differently) once we actually know more on this, the mystery is gone
several people have measure above COP 1 with different devices
check out Jean- Louis Naudin for this, it's a good website
I think Bill Beaty formulates it also very well at:
http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html

He says:

"WARNING WARNING WARNING!
DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO PEOPLE INVOLVED IN "FREE ENERGY"!!!! Legit researchers do exist, but they don't advertize themselves. The people who get publicity are scam artists. If someone is selling plans for "real" free-energy devices, they are a ripoff. Don't waste your money. Or if someone is selling "Dealerships" for a free energy company, hold tight to your wallet and RUN! Or, if you've already let them get their hands on your money, ask to see proof of the FE device, and see what excuse you're given. (It will be a very convincing excuse. Scam artists don't act sneaky. Scam artists survive because they seem far MORE honest and honorable than a normal person.) How to tell the difference? Easy: if you give them money before receiving a working FE device, , then it's a scam, always. "

and in his FAQ:

"A true "perpetual motion machine" is impossible, but a machine which taps an unknown energy source is not."

"On the other hand, "perpetual motion" crackpots really do exist in large numbers. Nowdays they attempt to hide behind the name "free energy." How can we sort the crackpots from the maverick heretical scientists? By using the same methods science has aways used : take a hard and honest look at the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, the experimental results."

that's exactly what people like J-L Naudin do with such a website
there's also MR Adam (inventor of the adam's motor), Harwood, etc. you can't say that there're all measuring wrongly nor can you scoff off all of them as liars
that's not a scientific appraoch, and as I said, your 2nd law is not violated in my opinion

you can always say that they lie till you get busy in it yourself and see it for yourself, then you'll meet other people but they will call you a liar, till you take them with you to see the device working, and then those other people will meet other people,...............

21. ### ismu::phenomenon::.Registered Senior Member

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468

c'est moi ,
I didn't said it's a lie, "a mistake" in quotes here means i've convinced several times ago by someone that it won't works. That's why then i search information about spinning cones.

But, if you,'ve seen by your own eyes it did works. May be just recent science unable to explain it, yet. I'll take a look again to Adam's motor. Thanks.

I agree with you that scientific laws made by human. And no human make no mistake. Ancient ages belive that earth is flat. Then it was proven earth is a ball. But they still believe that the sun rotating around earth. Next, proven that earth do rotating around the sun. Realtivity theory, and so on...

Who knows, based on Adam's motor and and Hamel's cones scientist thenfind out such new form of energy, uncovered by recent science yet...
(Telekinetic, telepathy, and levitation by bikhu of Tibet still beyond science isn't it?)

Last edited: Jan 31, 2002
22. ### kmguruStaff Member

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11,757
Sorry ismu, perpetual system does not quite work. That does not mean, we do not have one or two or a few. Photo- Cells are a kind of perpetual as long as the sun shines and the matter coverts photons to electrons. Just as PhotoCells, people have been trying to use gravity to do some useful work. Unfortunately what gravity gives, it taketh away. So, you get zero-sum gain. Photon is an external source, magnets and gravity are internal. So, you have to search any external energy such as cosmic rays, other high energy particles, solar winds etc to build your perpetual machine.

You can drill a deep hole to earth's crust and get energy for a loooong time.

I will stick to the wind power generators....and a large bank of Photo Cells - that will last a life time....

23. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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38,340
Hi c'est moi,

<i>"Unfortunately, all that is there is obfuscation, misleading explanation"

that's a hard claim, I would like to know why (or where)?</i>

As I said, I looked at the "principles of operation" section of the website. The diagrams are unclear. The explanation throws lots of vague terms around. There is nowhere, as far as I can see, a clear statement of hte operating principle. If you think there is, perhaps you'd like to summarise it in a sentence or two for me.

<i>why is [the peer reviewed journal reference] misleading? he tells what it is about, it is related to extracting ZPE</i>

...via the Casimir force, which seems to have nothing to do with the Adams motor.

<i>I think there is no violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics at all</i>

Why? It claims perpetual motion without energy input, doesn't it?

<i>"WARNING WARNING WARNING!
DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO PEOPLE INVOLVED IN "FREE ENERGY"!!!!...etc.</i>

I agree.

<i>"A true "perpetual motion machine" is impossible, but a machine which taps an unknown energy source is not."</i>

I agree with that too. So far nobody has shown the existence of any type of "unknown energy source".

<i>you can't say that there're all measuring wrongly nor can you scoff off all of them as liars</i>

Yes I can. Unless there is evidence to the contrary.

The fact is, if anybody discovered true "free energy" they would become immensely rich. They would win the Nobel prize for physics. Their device would revolutionise all aspects of our lives. So far this hasn't happened. What do you think the most likely explanation for that is?