Perpetual Motion/Over Unity Devices

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Epitectus, Apr 19, 2000.

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  1. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    The idea is to establish a macroscopic temperature difference, so the rankine cycle is still applicable. One would take all the microscopic temperature differences and pool them to create a macroscopic one.

    Here is a thought- can one concentrate sunlight to a temperature hotter than the sun? This would mean that energy is flowing from cold to hot.

    The answer is yes. We produce temperatures hotter than the sun in fusion experiments (much, much hotter than the surface of the sun). We could power these experiments with solar panels. So, we can draw energy from a colder source (the sun) and put it in a warmer source (the fusion experiment).
     
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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    DRZion, you seem obsessed with the energy equivalent of the "free lunch" - in two other threads I explained why you cannot get energy from the Earth's thermal radiation, in mechanistic detail, as I knew you would not accept that conclusion from the 2nd law of thermodynamics. (James R had already tried that way and you rejected it.)

    Here is the best conceptual attempt to do what you are trying to do in this thread with exploitation of the micro fluxations. I mentioned it, Maxwell's Demon, to you before. Unlike your feeble, ill-informed efforts, it is hard to destroy Maxwell's Demon, but has been done several times. (That is as should be as Maxwell knew a lot about thermodynamics.)

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    Read more at:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon

    Contents [hide]
    1 Maxwell's thought experiment
    2 Criticism and development
    3 Applications
    4 Experimental work based on Maxwell's Demon
    5 Adams and the demon as historical metaphor
    6 Maxwell's demon in popular culture
    7 See also
    8 Notes
    9 References
    10 Further reading

    Perhaps you will stop with your nonsense when you understand many much better informed than you more than 100 years ago realized it is not possible to get energy from a thermal source at temperature T unless you have a secondary place at temperature t such the T > t. Even then, you can only get, in theory, {1- (t/T)} of the energy converted in higher quality energy and at least (t/T) fraction of the thermal energy taken remains thermal at the colder temperature t. (Is less useful).

    It is really time for you to stop posting this nonsense. Do not again start a new thread of it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2009
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  5. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    There have been recent developments in thermodynamics that suggest that entropy is reversible for short periods of time. Maxwell did not know about these.

    I am not trying to get free lunch, and if I am, I plan to face the consequences. I am not saying the heat death of the universe can be prevented. The second law holds. Entropy is created.

    What about my example above? Energy is traveling from cold to hot.
     
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  7. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    Your example above is utter rubbish. We have two venues for posting such nonsense: here and here. Please stop posting it in the science forums.
     
  8. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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  9. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    It can't be anything other than a fake. That rattling noise you hear? Thats energy being dissipated from the mechanisms. That energyhas to come from somewhere, and its not coming from the magnets forcing the central wheel round and round in a perpetual motion machine. Note the non-existent lighting, and the opaque central wheel, and indeed as someone suggested in the comments, the motor is probably under the table.
     
  10. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    I've seen the magnetic-shielding motor before. Supposedly it has been proven not to work, but it took advanced calculus to prove why it doesn't work. :\
    http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

    At least mine doesn't try to break the 1st law and create energy out of nothing.
     
  11. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    I heard an excellent idea for a perpetual motion machine the other day. You know how a piece of toast with jam on it always lands on the carpet honey-side-down, while cats, when dropped, always land on their feet? Tie a piece of honeyed toast to a cat's back, honey-side-up, and drop the cat. The cat and the toast start spinning in midair, and there you are--perpetual motion...

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  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Better idea than some posted here.

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    However, the combo will still hit the floor, so you need to modify plan: Throw combo out of the shuttle so it can be in free fall nearly forever.

    NASA is interested in orientation devices - they can see if the cat's orientation ability depends on the cat being alive. (I think cat will die, but may not explode in the vacuum. Lets keep the plan secret - I don't think the SPCA likes cat experiments.)
     
  13. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I for one do not believe the cat will spin for ever. Sooner or later the cat will be burnt, much like the toast on it's back, by an expanding sun. In a real universe, friction is your ally.
     
  14. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    But wouldn't the cat move away from the sun as the sun loses mass? It might only get singed instead of burned up completely...

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  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Good point and don't forget cats have 9 lives. (Even in this one universe. If we use Schrödinger’s cat - - think of the non dead quantum cats in all those other universes!)
     
  16. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    I always knew quantum physics would come in useful some day...

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  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    ha a cat and honey sounds uhmmm nice...
    to create an over unity machine one must first create an under unity machine so that the over unity machine doesn't violate conservation laws.

    Gotta create the head of the dog as well as the tail so to speak other wise you aint got no dog chasing it's tail.
    Maybe we should use a cat and honey as an example instead!

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  18. AEGIS GEH Registered Member

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    Dear All...

    I think myself that "Perpetual Motion" devices or "Over-unity" devices does exist.The basic question is : only WE inventors ... or the Physicist Community wants to solve the technical issues as well. Our World and Life is rely on the Theories decades or 100 years old already. It makes not sense that nothing has been changed since that time.

    As I know myself we basically have a PM or OU system in use already... It´s known as Nuclear Power...there X amount of energy needed to enable Chemical reaction (fusion) which release few X more energy than the energy was needed to pursue the Reaction...the process is not self sustaining (fuel and energy is needed)...but anyway the final result is the same...

    "more energy OUT than we need to put IN..."

    Therefore I think myself the success of new and innovative technologies basically rely on the Scientific community and their willing to support the development of the same...

    Maybe I have an IDEA as well how to ... and IT looks that IT shall be classified as Renewable based tech. ...
     
  19. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    They don't.

    No they aren't.
    They don't use chemical reactions and there's definitely not more out than in.
    And since nuclear powerplants don't run forever on the same source (they need "topping up") they also aren't perpetual motion.
     
  20. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    I have an idea as well, but my idea does not entail creating energy. This would be a true perpetual motion machine, one that can run forever. Mine merely relies on a pool of heat, from which a temperature difference can be created. Of course, the universe is expanding, and the energy remains constant (as far as we know). So, energy is becoming very dissipated, and at some point even my perpetual motion machine will not be able to utilize it.

    I agree however that we too often rely on laws created 100 years ago. These laws are ingrained into our thoughts and are easily recalled by those who oppose revolutionary ideas..
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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  22. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You will not need to wait long if your only resource is "a pool of heat" as it will not even start to work.*

    If you have two "pools of heat" the hotter with temperture T and the colder with temperture t, then you can transfer all the thermal energy, E, in the hot pool to the cold pool and not get more work than W output where:

    W = E {(T-t)/T}

    and even that requires that the temperature of the "colder pool" does not increase. I.e. it is an infinite mass.

    -----------------
    *I think I have already told you to read about "Maxwell's Demond" - if not do so.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2009
  23. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    Ha! Fountain of eternity. I like it.

    This is a very good idea.. I've thought about something sort of similar to this and I still haven't figured out where the energy comes from.

    In a different, but perhaps related idea, I've thought about a tall chamber with liquid at the bottom which would evaporate and condense at the top. Towards the top of the chamber, you have static hydrophilic condensers [and the physics is tricky here, but for sure, water should at least settle onto the condensers, even if it does not drip down]. So, there is perpetual motion [or at least potential energy is created]. Where does this potential energy come from? Assume there is no sunlight.

    Going back to your idea-
    It certainly doesn't harness heat. It seems that it drives purely on gravitational energy.. but that would mean you are creating energy.

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    IF it does work, I cannot see how energy is not being outright created. I will have to give it some thought overnight.


    About magnetic bearings, you cannot make a static magnetic bearing [trust me

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    ]. This is Earnshaw's Theorem, and it states that you cannot levitate any collection of point charges using a static magnetic field. There are pseudo-magnetic bearings that use mechanical means to confine the magnets, but the lift is provided using magnetic force.
     
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