Proof there is a God

Discussion in 'Religion' started by JBrentonK, Sep 23, 2015.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. It's only been about 40,000 years.

    That's about when oral history first got started in modern man. In the previous 14.699,96 billion years, God could have been cavorting across the skies wearing a surgical glove on his head shouting "I'm a squid I'm a squid!" and we would know nothing about it.

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    I'm simply saying one should never say never.

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    The most moderate atheists position is not that God doesn't exist, but that, whether or not he exists, he appears to not interact with the world. Which is effectively the same as not existing, but not exactly the same.

    Now, that's not my belief; my belief is, indeed, that he doesn't exist.
    However, I am not above changing my belief should sufficient evidence present itself in the future.
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Right, because it had nothing to do with the topic.
    The human mind is mathematically constructed, but it does not always arrive at a mathematically consistent answer. You just cited a case.
    Yes the brain can certainly malfunction. Whereas the brain functions mathematically, it is often confused by emotion, which clouds clear thinking.
    I certainly don't not ignore what people "say". I just analyse if what they say makes sense from my perspective. So far I see no solid arguments that prove God exists.

    What does annoy me is the people who come to my door and invade my house to tell me I am a sinner because God tells them that. That is what I object to.

    And even understanding a little of how the universe works is better than just assuming some mythical figure did it all, in 6000 years no. I call that absolutely ignorant, in view of the evidence presented by many reputable scientists.

    Tell me, who are these "people like me". Is that something like ; if I don't believe in god I am stupid? I could say the reverse is true. After all, it was stupid (change that to ignorant) people who came up with the idea that there are gods (God) in the first place.

    Where's the proof there is a God? Anyone? C'mon now, there has to be some proof available to non-stupid people, and I like to learn, cause I'm stooopid!

    Ad hominem after ad hominem, and all from the enlightened pious minds.
    Me thinks thou protest too much. It's a peculiar property of the mind. When it gets confused it reacts unpredictable. "Fight or Flight" remember that fundamental behavior of living organisms. Some walk away, as I am about to do, and some respond by attacking that what makes them feel uncomfortable.

    And yes, hitting someone with your fist is a mathematical action (function). It is the mind that orders that action and the mind always "makes decisions in the direction of greatest satisfaction" (which in itself is a mathematical function).
    Actually you proved my point again.

    The universe works in a consistent manner, and a lot of these functions have been discovered through our ability to translate by using mathematical symbols.

    Amazing isn't it that we were able to symbolize the universal patterns and use them in the "applied sciences". When we use the maths correctly, it seems to work perfectly, and when we make a mistake, it doesn't work. And that is, because it is all mathematical and we are still "discovering" these mathematical functions. Ask any Cosmologist.

    As to the violent nature of the universe. It's mathematically required, in order to form heavy elements. So, instead of complaining, be thankful that the universe functions that way. You're alive aren't you?

    Moreover, the same argument applies to the concept of God, an emotional motivated being.
    He could have done it right in the first place, no? No decent person would create all the havoc God's allows. Perhaps God himself is still learning the mathematics he instilled into the fabric of the universe?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Really, why is it that Lemurs (a very old species) can abstractly count quantities?
    Actually squids already do that. They just do it by color displays orhiding one of their tentacles to disguise themselves as females.
    It adds a little spice to the question. An expensive spice at that.
    At last an honest answer. Does anyone here believe that I would not change my belief in the face of sufficient evidence?

    So far the evidence suggest an implacable (mathematically consistent) universal function.
    And IMO, there is sufficient evidence to believe that everything works in some orderly manner, which we have been able to represent symbolically and call it mathematics.
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Do what I did

    A few Halloween props at the door

    Couple of Pentagrams and ouija boards in plain sight

    Hooded robes and candles are a good touch

    Have seen anyone for awhile so I might bring them in to see if they return

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  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, if they don't burn your house down first. It won't be the first time.

    In fourth grade I suggested that people are made of atoms. After school I received a healthy thrashing by 5 older kids, for blasphemy.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What does any of this have to do with whether humans were around to watch God cavort across the skies?

    Have you asked any lemurs or squids if their great-great-ancestors saw God dancing in his BBDs?
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That was the point. Lemurs can observe and quantify, but I never saw a Lemur praying.

    Though I did see a clip once on a troupe of chimpanzees who, during a thunderstorm huddled together to seek shelter and comfort.
    At one point, the Alpha male picked up a stick and started beating the bushes to flush out that unseen being which made him and his family miserable. At the end of the clip the male actually raised the stick to the heavens and shook it to scare off that being which was throwing water at him.

    I see that as the first example of abstracting natural events into an intentional action by an unseen but powerful enemy.

    Later we started to make sacrifices to appease this being. Now we just pray for his favor.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Right. Because they're not sophisticated enough to comprehend what they're seeing let alone worship it.
    But that does not indicate that God wasn't doing a jig over their heads.

    The overall point being that God - should he exist - may yet pop in for a visit.
    Granted I too think it highly unlikely, and I believe that he never will. But I won't go so far as to make such an unevidenced assertion. Jan got into a fair bit of hot water over that recently - stating belief as if it were knowledge.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Because the subject is supposed to be an objective analysis of the properties of God, not of humans. Most of our senses lag far behind those of animals in nature. Our advantage lies in our ability for abstract thought, but that is a double edged sword. You can believe it, but can you prove it?

    Moreover, we can in fact look back some 14.7 billion years, but no hint of a mysterious guiding hand, when you analyze the dynamic potentials and forces at work, it's all mathematical.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I am simply refuting this assertion:

    The lemurs have not imparted their evidence of God upon us. Thus, the only window we have to asserting God hasn't been here is within the span of human oral history.

    I'm not defending the presence of God, I'm simply saying we can't assert that he wasn't (or isn't) around based on lack of evidence. Best we can do is assert that we see no forensic evidence of him from the past - and no activity in the present.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  14. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    .

    No 1 knows all the factors involved in life coming about here or on trillions of other planets. No 1 knows the odds. No 1 knows it would not have happened if things had been different.

    Dinosaurs & others dying out probably was a crucial factor in the evolution of humanity.

    You seem to put much too much value on the huge number of species which have come about here. I see it as a negative & 1 of the reasons I say Earth is inhospitible to life.
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    I definitely would not.

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  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    But it isn't.

    It is the most hospitable place that we know of in the entire universe.

    The fact that living things die doesn't mean it's Earth's fault. Life evolves. Life has found Earth to be extremely hospitable - enough so that life got started within less than a million years after Earth's surface solidified, and for at least 4 billion years afterward.

    Frankly, life's biggest enemy is ... other life.

    I have no doubt that, if those first single-celled organisms weren't out-competed by more evolved organisms, they'd still cover the Earth, bathing in its rich nutrients for aeons.
     
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  16. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    I was there. I saw it!

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  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Dang.

    OK King of Lemurs. Your people have spoken.

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  18. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Evidently my criterion is quite different from yours.

    Hospitable - pleasant & favorable for life

    Inhospitable - harsh or difficult for life

    If you were to rate many various areas of this planet, what factors would you use?

    If we were out there searching for planets to colonize, what factors would be involved? Would you not care how good or bad, as long as we can survive there?

    Something being the best we know of does not mean it is the best.

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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree that objectively we cannot be absolutely sure, but the available evidence does not suggest an intentional sentient designer, but does suggest an inherently consistent mathematical function.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But perhaps it's the only way. After all we are made from stardust. Ask yourself, how did that happen and could it possibly have happened otherwise?

    Why should an all powerful being use this method to create life in the first place?
    According to scripture, God created everything we see. Why did it need to be a violent process?

    Why this contradiction?
     
  21. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    I am mostly with Dave as far as some god(s) but the god portrayed in the Christian bible cannot exist because it is too self contradictory. It is a logic impossibility. Might as well claim a square triangle or a god which exists & does not exist.

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  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing like religious peace and harmony

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  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    .

    But perhaps it is not the only way.

    As far as we know now, it might have happened another way.

    Regardless, harsh & difficult is inhospitable. Even IF this is the best planet in the universe (which it is probably not), it is yet harsh & damn difficult. It is nowhere near what we would have if we had a choice.

    How did god get into this?

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