Proof there is a God

It's been 14.7 billion years of tomorrows without any evidence of such extraordinary powers performed by an individual not long enough for you?
Nope. It's only been about 40,000 years.

That's about when oral history first got started in modern man. In the previous 14.699,96 billion years, God could have been cavorting across the skies wearing a surgical glove on his head shouting "I'm a squid I'm a squid!" and we would know nothing about it. :D

I'm simply saying one should never say never. :)

The most moderate atheists position is not that God doesn't exist, but that, whether or not he exists, he appears to not interact with the world. Which is effectively the same as not existing, but not exactly the same.

Now, that's not my belief; my belief is, indeed, that he doesn't exist.
However, I am not above changing my belief should sufficient evidence present itself in the future.
 
Yes, do tell. the mayhem is all around you and pretend it isn't. that is also insanity.
Right, because it had nothing to do with the topic.
please explain in mathematics what happened and how the universe is so wonderful, streamlined and trustworthy when the ones who told the church the earth was not the center of the universe were convicted of heresy, treason and burned alive at the stake. Yes, please do explain this wonderful pattern of how mathematics is so beautiful.
The human mind is mathematically constructed, but it does not always arrive at a mathematically consistent answer. You just cited a case.
Next, you'll be explaining how beautiful it is mathematically when someone's hands ball up in a fist and motion back and forth to pummel someone else in the face as well as the complex mathematical intricacy of it all. or how about explain how beautiful it is in mathematics for a baby to be raped to death etc.
Yes the brain can certainly malfunction. Whereas the brain functions mathematically, it is often confused by emotion, which clouds clear thinking.
people like you are profoundly ignorant, absolutely ignore everything else to focus on only what you want to see/know/consistent to you and then have the nerve to say you understand reality and all you understand is just a piece.
I certainly don't not ignore what people "say". I just analyse if what they say makes sense from my perspective. So far I see no solid arguments that prove God exists.

What does annoy me is the people who come to my door and invade my house to tell me I am a sinner because God tells them that. That is what I object to.

And even understanding a little of how the universe works is better than just assuming some mythical figure did it all, in 6000 years no. I call that absolutely ignorant, in view of the evidence presented by many reputable scientists.

Tell me, who are these "people like me". Is that something like ; if I don't believe in god I am stupid? I could say the reverse is true. After all, it was stupid (change that to ignorant) people who came up with the idea that there are gods (God) in the first place.

Where's the proof there is a God? Anyone? C'mon now, there has to be some proof available to non-stupid people, and I like to learn, cause I'm stooopid!

Ad hominem after ad hominem, and all from the enlightened pious minds.
Me thinks thou protest too much. It's a peculiar property of the mind. When it gets confused it reacts unpredictable. "Fight or Flight" remember that fundamental behavior of living organisms. Some walk away, as I am about to do, and some respond by attacking that what makes them feel uncomfortable.

And yes, hitting someone with your fist is a mathematical action (function). It is the mind that orders that action and the mind always "makes decisions in the direction of greatest satisfaction" (which in itself is a mathematical function).
Actually you proved my point again.

The universe works in a consistent manner, and a lot of these functions have been discovered through our ability to translate by using mathematical symbols.

Amazing isn't it that we were able to symbolize the universal patterns and use them in the "applied sciences". When we use the maths correctly, it seems to work perfectly, and when we make a mistake, it doesn't work. And that is, because it is all mathematical and we are still "discovering" these mathematical functions. Ask any Cosmologist.

As to the violent nature of the universe. It's mathematically required, in order to form heavy elements. So, instead of complaining, be thankful that the universe functions that way. You're alive aren't you?

Moreover, the same argument applies to the concept of God, an emotional motivated being.
He could have done it right in the first place, no? No decent person would create all the havoc God's allows. Perhaps God himself is still learning the mathematics he instilled into the fabric of the universe?
 
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Dave said,
Nope. It's only been about 40,000 years.
Really, why is it that Lemurs (a very old species) can abstractly count quantities?
That's about when oral history first got started in modern man. In the previous 14.699,96 billion years, God could have been cavorting across the skies wearing a surgical glove on his head shouting "I'm a squid I'm a squid!" and we would know nothing about it. :D
Actually squids already do that. They just do it by color displays orhiding one of their tentacles to disguise themselves as females.
I'm simply saying one should never say never. :)

The most moderate atheists position is not that God doesn't exist, but that, whether or not he exists, he appears to not interact with the world. Which is effectively the same as not existing, but not exactly the same.
It adds a little spice to the question. An expensive spice at that.
Now, that's not my belief; my belief is, indeed, that he doesn't exist.
However, I am not above changing my belief should sufficient evidence present itself in the future.
At last an honest answer. Does anyone here believe that I would not change my belief in the face of sufficient evidence?

So far the evidence suggest an implacable (mathematically consistent) universal function.
And IMO, there is sufficient evidence to believe that everything works in some orderly manner, which we have been able to represent symbolically and call it mathematics.
 
What does annoy me is the people who come to my door and invade my house to tell me I am a sinner because God tells them that. That is what I object to.

Do what I did

A few Halloween props at the door

Couple of Pentagrams and ouija boards in plain sight

Hooded robes and candles are a good touch

Have seen anyone for awhile so I might bring them in to see if they return :)

:)
 
Do what I did

A few Halloween props at the door

Couple of Pentagrams and ouija boards in plain sight

Hooded robes and candles are a good touch

Have seen anyone for awhile so I might bring them in to see if they return :)
Yes, if they don't burn your house down first. It won't be the first time.

In fourth grade I suggested that people are made of atoms. After school I received a healthy thrashing by 5 older kids, for blasphemy.
 
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Really, why is it that Lemurs (a very old species) can abstractly count quantities?
Actually squids already do that. They just do it by color displays orhiding one of their tentacles to disguise themselves as females.
What does any of this have to do with whether humans were around to watch God cavort across the skies?

Have you asked any lemurs or squids if their great-great-ancestors saw God dancing in his BBDs?
 
What does any of this have to do with whether humans were around to watch God cavort across the skies?

Have you asked any lemurs or squids if their great-great-ancestors saw God dancing in his BBDs?
That was the point. Lemurs can observe and quantify, but I never saw a Lemur praying.

Though I did see a clip once on a troupe of chimpanzees who, during a thunderstorm huddled together to seek shelter and comfort.
At one point, the Alpha male picked up a stick and started beating the bushes to flush out that unseen being which made him and his family miserable. At the end of the clip the male actually raised the stick to the heavens and shook it to scare off that being which was throwing water at him.

I see that as the first example of abstracting natural events into an intentional action by an unseen but powerful enemy.

Later we started to make sacrifices to appease this being. Now we just pray for his favor.
 
That was the point. Lemurs can observe and quantify, but I never saw a Lemur praying.
Right. Because they're not sophisticated enough to comprehend what they're seeing let alone worship it.
But that does not indicate that God wasn't doing a jig over their heads.

The overall point being that God - should he exist - may yet pop in for a visit.
Granted I too think it highly unlikely, and I believe that he never will. But I won't go so far as to make such an unevidenced assertion. Jan got into a fair bit of hot water over that recently - stating belief as if it were knowledge.
 
What does any of this have to do with whether humans were around to watch God cavort across the skies?
Because the subject is supposed to be an objective analysis of the properties of God, not of humans. Most of our senses lag far behind those of animals in nature. Our advantage lies in our ability for abstract thought, but that is a double edged sword. You can believe it, but can you prove it?

Moreover, we can in fact look back some 14.7 billion years, but no hint of a mysterious guiding hand, when you analyze the dynamic potentials and forces at work, it's all mathematical.
 
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Because the subject is supposed to be an objective analysis of the properties of God, not of humans. Most of our senses lag far behind those of animals in nature. Our advantage lies in our ability for abstract thought, but that is a double edged sword. You can believe it, but can you prove it?
I am simply refuting this assertion:

It's been 14.7 billion years of tomorrows without any evidence of such extraordinary powers performed by an individual not long enough for you?
The lemurs have not imparted their evidence of God upon us. Thus, the only window we have to asserting God hasn't been here is within the span of human oral history.

I'm not defending the presence of God, I'm simply saying we can't assert that he wasn't (or isn't) around based on lack of evidence. Best we can do is assert that we see no forensic evidence of him from the past - and no activity in the present.
 
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I totally agree on that. But they have it backwards and that is understandable if the earth was 6000 years old. But it is 4.7 billion years old and that makes it mathematically more probable that life would occur. We see life as sacred, and it would be if we were the only living species in the universe. But suppose some forms of life evolve naturally and is just another expression of the inherent potential of this universe.

Let's put it simply, if the earth had not had such a violent past, the created chemicals and dynamic conditions might never have existed for life to emerge.

This is the atheist argument; if life is a probabilistic occurrence, the larger and more diverse the chemical interactions, the greater the probability for "something" to happen that eventually gave rise to the incredible variety of extant life on this planet. As you noted, natural selection and a few global disasters have tested the ability of some life to survive. And from this testing, at least one organism managed to survive and evolve in even a very hostile environments. Where did Tardigrades (Water Bears) and Extremophiles come from? They can survive years of draught, temperatures from 400c to -400c
WaterBear_web_1024.jpg


http://www.sciencealert.com/new-stu...ater-bears-have-become-so-damn-indestructible

If you saw the Hazen clip, you know how many chemical reactions he estimated to have occurred during the earth's lifetime: 4 trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion chemical interactions! All we need is just one chemical interaction to produce a bio-molecule. He demonstrated how easy it is to produce a round cell from goo. So apparently that's a very natural mathematical function, which is obvious in all the spherical objects in the universe. Now add an internal chemical reaction that causes it to split in half and the process of evolution has begun. This is not rare, it is common. No miracles, just chemicals, mathematical functions, and time. If life occurred on this ordinary planet, the universe must be teeming with life!

Moreover, our bodies are mostly made up from the most abundant chemicals in the universe. Nothing special about human bio-chemistry, except for the neural network of our brains.

As to the emergence of homo sapiens from the hominid family, IMO, this occurred when two separate chromosomes fused into a single larger chromosome. Humans are the only hominid with 23 pairs of chromosomes, whereas all other hominids have 24 pairs.

To me that suggests that this mutation is connected with the evolution of man. Of all our 98 % common chromosomes, there is only one that clearly sets us apart from other hominids.
http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

My lay hypothesis is that this fusion had something to do with neural brain growth and gave humans the ability for greater abstract thinking, a very useful asset in observing, analyzing, and taking preventive action.

Most hominids have just as efficient (or greater) observational powers from shared senses, but humans have the ability to reflect on these observations at a much deeper level due to our increased brain size and neural growth patterns, which might well be responsible for early migration in search of the ideal habitat (paradise).
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No 1 knows all the factors involved in life coming about here or on trillions of other planets. No 1 knows the odds. No 1 knows it would not have happened if things had been different.

Dinosaurs & others dying out probably was a crucial factor in the evolution of humanity.

You seem to put much too much value on the huge number of species which have come about here. I see it as a negative & 1 of the reasons I say Earth is inhospitible to life.
I'm an atheist, but even I am not prepared to assert that there never will be proof of God.

If, tomorrow, a mile tall guy in a robe, sporting a white beard and a staff parted the clouds and, with a snap of his fingers, turned night into day, I would consider that compelling evidence of God.
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I definitely would not.

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I say Earth is inhospitible to life.
But it isn't.

It is the most hospitable place that we know of in the entire universe.

The fact that living things die doesn't mean it's Earth's fault. Life evolves. Life has found Earth to be extremely hospitable - enough so that life got started within less than a million years after Earth's surface solidified, and for at least 4 billion years afterward.

Frankly, life's biggest enemy is ... other life.

I have no doubt that, if those first single-celled organisms weren't out-competed by more evolved organisms, they'd still cover the Earth, bathing in its rich nutrients for aeons.
 
Nope. It's only been about 40,000 years.

That's about when oral history first got started in modern man. In the previous 14.699,96 billion years, God could have been cavorting across the skies wearing a surgical glove on his head shouting "I'm a squid I'm a squid!" and we would know nothing about it. :D

I was there. I saw it!

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But it isn't.

It is the most hospitable place that we know of in the entire universe.

The fact that living things die doesn't mean it's Earth's fault. Life evolves. Life has found Earth to be extremely hospitable - enough so that life got started within less than a million years after Earth's surface solidified, and for at least 4 billion years afterward.

Frankly, life's biggest enemy is ... other life.

I have no doubt that, if those first single-celled organisms weren't out-competed by more evolved organisms, they'd still cover the Earth, bathing in its rich nutrients for aeons.

Evidently my criterion is quite different from yours.

Hospitable - pleasant & favorable for life

Inhospitable - harsh or difficult for life

If you were to rate many various areas of this planet, what factors would you use?

If we were out there searching for planets to colonize, what factors would be involved? Would you not care how good or bad, as long as we can survive there?

Something being the best we know of does not mean it is the best.

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Right. Because they're not sophisticated enough to comprehend what they're seeing let alone worship it.
But that does not indicate that God wasn't doing a jig over their heads.

The overall point being that God - should he exist - may yet pop in for a visit.
Granted I too think it highly unlikely, and I believe that he never will. But I won't go so far as to make such an unevidenced assertion. Jan got into a fair bit of hot water over that recently - stating belief as if it were knowledge.

I agree that objectively we cannot be absolutely sure, but the available evidence does not suggest an intentional sentient designer, but does suggest an inherently consistent mathematical function.
 
Evidently my criterion is quite different from yours.

Hospitable - pleasant & favorable for life

Inhospitable - harsh or difficult for life

If you were to rate many various areas of this planet, what factors would you use?

If we were out there searching for planets to colonize, what factors would be involved? Would you not care how good or bad, as long as we can survive there?

Something being the best we know of does not mean it is the best. <>
But perhaps it's the only way. After all we are made from stardust. Ask yourself, how did that happen and could it possibly have happened otherwise?

Why should an all powerful being use this method to create life in the first place?
According to scripture, God created everything we see. Why did it need to be a violent process?

Why this contradiction?
 
I agree that objectively we cannot be absolutely sure, but the available evidence does not suggest an intentional sentient designer, but does suggest an inherently consistent mathematical function.

I am mostly with Dave as far as some god(s) but the god portrayed in the Christian bible cannot exist because it is too self contradictory. It is a logic impossibility. Might as well claim a square triangle or a god which exists & does not exist.

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Yes, if they don't burn your house down first. It won't be the first time.

In fourth grade I suggested that people are made of atoms. After school I received a healthy thrashing by 5 older kids, for blasphemy.

Nothing like religious peace and harmony

:)
 
But perhaps it's the only way. After all we are made from stardust. Ask yourself, how did that happen and could it possibly have happened otherwise?

Why should an all powerful being use this method to create life in the first place?
According to scripture, God created everything we see. Why did it need to be a violent process?

Why this contradiction?
.

But perhaps it is not the only way.

As far as we know now, it might have happened another way.

Regardless, harsh & difficult is inhospitable. Even IF this is the best planet in the universe (which it is probably not), it is yet harsh & damn difficult. It is nowhere near what we would have if we had a choice.

How did god get into this?

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