prove to me that god is real

Therein lies much of the problem. Although it may not seem an important issue, it most certainly is one of THE most important issues.

How DID those so-called holy men receive those alleged words from god? Did it come in a vision, a booming voice from the sky, burning bush? How exactly?

 

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I saw a guy on TV (Heaven & Earth, BBC) claiming that he became a Christian after having a vision of God, telling him that he loved him, etc. The interviewer (also a Christian) seemed to believe every word. It's worth pointing out that the man in question was also a heavy drug user at the time, and had nearly died from abusing various substances, such as herion, crack, etc. Perhaps these early (and recent) so called prophets also chased the dragon?

 

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According to their words, typically while they were visions. Some mention the fact that they were in prayer at the time.

Moses met up with the Burning Bush, when God told him to go to free the people from Egypt.

Isaiah 1:1 - "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."

Ezekiel 1:1 - "Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."

Obadiah 1:1 - "The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom;"

Nahum 1:1 - "The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite."

Habakkuk 1:1 - "The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see."

Revelation 1:10-11 - "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea"

Most of the rest of the time, they were not so descriptive. They would simply say that the Word of the Lord came to them.

HOWEVER

John 1:1-2 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

So if the Word of the Lord came to them, it is very likely that The WORD of God actually came and spoke to them.

Jeremiah 1:1-2 - "The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin: To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign"

Hosea 1:1 - "The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel."

Joel 1:1 - The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel"

Jonah 1:1 - "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,"

Micah 1:1 - "The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem."

Zephaniah 1:1 - "The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah."

Zachariah 1:1 - "The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah."

Joshua 1:1 - "Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,"

1 Samuel 3:1 - "And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision. " (this was rare, and far between, at times)

1 Samuel 3:4-10 - "That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I. And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down. And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.
Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him. And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the LORD had called the child. Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place. And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth."

To Samuel, this was an audible voice...enough to where he went to the only person he knew of to be there. Yet, in the end, when he answered, God spoke to him. Hope that helps.

 

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John, I think Q's question was somewhat rhetorical, but a good effort on your part, so hats off.
The point is how can we be sure these people didn't just make it up? Of course we cannot be sure, but then we start going down the road of faith, and beliefs, and end up pretty much nowhere!

 

That is, unless you look into history, and find out which of their statements turned out true, and what, if any, did not. Also, look at the cohesion between the different books, authors, and subject matter. Also, several of these gave a very good indication of when they were being written, by speaking of who was in power at the time.

Archaeological evidence has been found, even in Iraq, which verifies some of these prophesied writings. They found the ancient, inscribed, clay cylinder bearing the actual degree of King Cyrus of Persia allowing the various captured natives of many differenty nations to return freely to their ancient homelands. It was the government policy of the preceding Babylonian Empire of King Nebuchadnezzar to display whole peoples such as the Jews and resettle them in the far reaches of their empire. However, King Cyrus of Persia reversed this policy. Immediately after conquering the Babylonian Empire, Cyrus issued a decree allowing the Jews to freely return to their homeland in Israel, ending their 70-year long captivity. This decree began "I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king". After describing his conquests and deeds, the inscription reads, "I gathered all their former inhabitants and returned to them their habitations." Cyrus sent the Jews back to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

Ezra 1:1-3 - "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem."

Now, granted, Ezra could have made up this story about King Cyrus making this statement at the instruction and inspiration of God...but the prophesy that this would happen was in Jeremiah's book, dated between 627 and 585 BC. Cyrus, King of Persia, was ruler here between 538 and 530 BC. Ezra was writing after the fact.

These occurrances are readily available, as documented, historical fact. Every last event shows that the writings of the Bible are accurate in detail.

 

Yawns politely, bla,bla,bla, and yet no solid evidence of any thing right?

PROPHECIES: IMAGINARY AND UNFULFILLED

A shit load of bible prophecies that didn't happen!!

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Godless

 

John Mark E ,

tell me,.. are you an evangelical christian if so,.. why??
why do other religons follow different scriptural paths.,,.its clear there's alot of confusion in the meaning and interpretations in the bible to cause many divisions amongst the christian faith!

 

I wouldn't consider "bla, bla, bla" so polite. I have given you the evidence, if you had been concerned enough to read a bit of my posts. I have also provided instances of historical accuracy, which, again, you have ignored.

 

john: could you be good enough to list all of the fulfilled prophecies of the Bible with as little irrelevant rambling as possible?

 

There are many labels out there, for many different groups, which mean absolutely nothing. Sadly, many people claim to be Christian, simply based on the fact that they believe in God.

James 2:19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

Believing in God is not enough to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

We cannot be justified to God other than through His provision, just as when He provided a sacrifice, at the time He tested Abraham.

Isaiah 53:1-12 - "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

The term Evangelical Christian is nothing more than a label of a Christian who believes that we are to take the word of God and tell others about it. This is supposed to be good news. That is why it is called the Gospel.

Matthew 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Regretably, most of the divisions that I have seen have been based on technicalities, or running with a single verse of scripture to support your actions (snake handlers, poison drinkers). Unfortunately, these divisions are happening due to legalistic mindsets.

God doesn't look on the surface, but rather on the heart. What He wants is obedience. He wants us to take His word, study it, gain understanding from it, take what we have learned and tell others about it. We are to love and care for each other, as The Bible states that He cared for us.

Obedience to His Word; Caring and support for those around us. Tell others about who God is, and His care for them. It is not the Christian's job to make converts, which has caused so much of the trouble over the years...only the Holy Spirit can call people to repentance. We are merely to go and tell.

Christians were never meant to be in contention with each other, although we have been.

Why am I like this? I tend to take most of what I hear with a grain of salt. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I take what I hear, and compare it with what I read. If what I hear doesn't mesh, then that gets thrown out. I am going to stick with the Bible. This mindset is what I have learned from MY STUDY...not from what others have taught me. And as you can see from my posts, I try to back up what I believe by specific scripture, and a lot of it.

 

John Mark..

I know this is from a while ago, but alas my computer stopped working. I prayed for weeks for it to work, but then gave up with that idea and went out and bought a new one instead. Anyway..

My statement was that his claim is as worthless as any other claim or quoting of ancient texts by any other person of any one of thousands of religions and beliefs.. unless of course he can show his god and texts and being valid and how his beliefs are more valid than everyone elses.

Well, he most probably is delusional, but I fail to see the connection between making the statement that I did and either of the above examples.

K

 

For those who did not speak directly to god, their words are worthless as they cannot be distinguished from voices in their heads; ie, their own.

So, it would be those who claimed to have spoken directly with god which should be focused on for any possibility of credibility.

And then we have to wonder why that same god refuses to speak directly to anyone else? I've got about a million godamn questions to ask him.

 

I checked out the website you mentioned. I have to say, though, that those arguments had so many holes in them that it would have been hilarious, if I didn’t know that people would read it, accept it immediately, and lose all hope for their souls.

All the scripture references he made, that I looked up, were quoted correctly. However, sometimes, they were not quoted fully in context (although much was) or with full understanding. And I’ll admit, I did not fully understand them when I started reading them as they were being written. The more that I compared the text to The Bible itself, and prayed concerning this, I did begin to understand from where the problems arose, as well as most of the solutions for them.

This whole article is simply another person, of many, who are doing their best to discredit The Bible. No big surprise…The Bible said that people would, and that is to be expected.

Some common mistakes throughout this whole thing are that:

1) all prophesies have to be fully understandable by human standards
2) the writers of the prophesy had to fully comprehend the statements
they were making, as well as God’s timing plans
3) prophesy has time limits, and
4) God is no longer working His Will in the world today.

Many of the “failed” prophesies that are listed in this statement are mentioned in the Book of Revelation, and as such, simply have not yet come to pass. This author is looking at his arguments in the very short term. His short-sightedness fails to take into consideration that God created Time, and is therefore not subject to Time as we know it. God still has plans for this world. Many are listed in the passages of The Bible which refer to the Christ’s Millennial Reign on Earth, followed by future ages about which we, at this time, know practically nothing.

I appreciate you posting this website and document, Godless. It has helped me to see just how blind people can be to the truth of God’s Word, and where Christians need to be informed concerning their own beliefs. I know that my belief in God and His Word, The Bible, are stronger now, because of it. Thank you.

 

Keep waiting nut-job! they will never happen!

If you took your pompus head out of your ass and actually read the godamn bible you would know that it was meant to happen during biblical time lines.

I.E.

* About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Jeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen.

*About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century.Failed prophecies

 

I intend to.

Luke 12:37 - Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching:

Luke 12:38 - And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

And if you would continue on to the next couple of verses, which begin the next chapter, you would see:

Matthew 17:1,2 - And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And were you to read the rest of the passage, before your chosen, out-of-context verse, you would plainly see that He was speaking of events which had not yet occurred, nor would they occur until the end. And He said that those who saw these things, THEIR generation would not pass.

Interesting...and yet the website you copy and pasted both of those from does not seem to contain a scripture reference to back this up. hmm...

Other entries on this NEW website, that you have now thrown in, are not even listed in The Bible to begin with.

St Clement 1 - not a Biblical prophet. also, the entry does not give an exact time, nor could it, with any accuracy, as The Bible clearly states:

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

And this one verse will cover the next several listings. Aside from these two which you mentioned, NONE of the others are listed in The Bible. This is yet another of many attempts to discredit The Bible. This is an attempt that also has no ground on which to stand.

 

The whole ability of the writers of the bilbe to predict the future is irrelevant.

Since incredibly vague 'prophecies' were 'fulfilled' by events of which there is no proof for, they are not predictions transpired. A prophecy and it's fulfillment in the same fictional book are NOT demonstrations of predicting the future. Indeed, no prophecy I am aware of is even specific enough to creditted with such an ability. Vague prediction which has been fulfilled in probably fictional religious text with no factual record of it happening, takes someone very gullible to believe it.

People who blindly believe in vague biblical philosophies are just idiots.

 

As once stated by DD: "Insults are the desperate last resort of a defensive but defeated mind! "

As you have said, no prophesy THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF was specific. I have a suggestion for you. Why do you not simply read The Bible, and find out about them. Not individual verses, or even phrases, that you have heard mention might contradict, but ALL of it. Maybe then things will not seem as vague.

 

Mat 24:3 NRSV) When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

(Mat 24:27 NRSV) For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

(Mat 24:30 NRSV) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.

(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.


However you would want to interpret this?

The typical excuse of a christian! "out of context, out of context"

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Matt 10:23: [Jesus said to his disciples] 'When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes'.
Matt 16:28: [Jesus said to the disciples], 'Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom'.
Mark 9:1: And he [Jesus] said to them [the disciples], 'Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power'.
Mark 13:30: [After detailing events up to end of world, Jesus says] 'Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place'.
Mark 14:62: And Jesus said [to the high priest - died 1st cent. AD] 'You will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven'.
Rom 13:12: The day is at hand.
1 Cor 7:29: The appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none.
1 Cor 7:31: For the form of this world is passing away.
Phil 4:5: The Lord is coming soon.
1 Thess 4:15: We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord.
Hebrews 1:2: In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.
Hebrews 10:37: For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry.
James 5:8: The coming of the Lord is at hand.
1 Peter 1:20: He [Christ] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times.
1 Peter 4:7: The end of all things is at hand.
1 John 2:18: It is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming.
Rev 1:1: The revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e., the end of the world)...to show to his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 3:11: [Jesus said] 'I am coming soon'.
Rev 22:6: And the Lord...has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 22:20: [Jesus said] 'Surely I am coming soon'.


And you interpret this to happen when?

The bible itself is the atheist's best weapon agaist religion ever created!.

 

Wait I know your excuse:

Out of context? lol..