Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by dansufc, Apr 9, 2005.
? who still breathes.
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What, then, in your opinion, constitutes as "credible"?
My credibility lacks only because you say it does. Yet you have been completely unable to disprove any statement I have made, nor any of those so-called "fairy tale characters" with actual, documented FACT. I still await this "crushing" evidence of yours.
Partial translated text from Prof. Niebuhr's "Voyage en Arabie"
--In thy name O God, the God of Hamyar, I tajah, the daughter of Dzu Shefar, sent my steward to Joseph, And he delaying to return to me, I sent my hand maid with a measure of silver, to bring me back a measure of flour: And not being able to procure it, I sent her with a measure of gold: And not being able to procure it, I sent her with a measure of pearls..."
This ancient inscription, discovered in 1850, reveals a Yemenite Arab noble woman's sincere complaint that she could not purchase Egypt's grain with her wealth.
Most likely would mean that you have absolutely nothing to back this claim.
Read the rest of the story. You will find that their arrogance and conceit caused them to build this structure in direct defiance of God's instructions to fill the earth. They wanted to "make us a name" for their own pride. Pride was, afterall, the first of all sins.
The "possibly" states that you do not know. Josephus was a historian. He was not a religious writer.
A character in a play??? Where did you come up with that one? You have no grounds for such a statement that Jesus was a parody.
There you go with your claim on all scholarly evidence. And what difference does it make if "Ptah" was an Egyptianization of "Peter". Shall I give you the rest of what I had on this guy? Maybe even what "scholars" says about the Egyptian historians.
has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I was talking about in this section. The SEALS to which I referred were those which a person would stamp a document. Aparantly you are NOT reading everything.
I have openly admitted, probably a month ago, that I could not provide physical evidence of God, Himself...or at least what you would recognize as evidence. However, with what information I have provided, it is doubtful that anyone, who would honestly research it, could see that the book that claims to be the Word of God has not been misleading or incorrect.
Then read a book. Just because it is on the Internet does not make it true.
Proselytizing is simply a matter of making new converts to a belief. Would you not say that what you, yourself are doing, is trying to force your beliefs on me? Your insistence that God does not exist, and your attempt at getting others to agree with this can be viewed as that. I have not been trying to make any converts to a particular belief system. I have stated that God does exist, the Bible is true, and used quotes from the Bible. Nothing more. But if the Bible is true, then a person should read it, and discover for themselves what should be done.
NOUN: The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief or to prove worthy as factual.
M*W: You have made statements which you have not been able to back-up with any credibility. It is not I who has proven your lack of credibility, you have brought that upon yourself.
I think the only way to get through to you is to perhaps take a poll, which I am not going to do, because this is NOT about you or me being right or wrong, it's about the burden of proof being on the believer. A negative cannot be proven. Jesus' existence cannot be proven. You are the one who believes in "fairy tales," not me. Therefore, the onus is on YOU to prove their existence. Even Santa Claus has a legitimate historic origin! Jesus Christ does not.
Further, these very same topics have been around the block a few hundred times on this forum, so it is a waste of time to keep going in circles. As yet, no one has been able to prove Jesus exists. Perhaps with your "credibility," you will be the one to prove his existence. We all await this very educational opportunity which we know you will present us post haste.
M*W: I fail to see how this proves a famine in Egypt.
M*W: So the above story is like a parable or fable with a moral. That certainly doesn't qualify as real or historic.
M*W: No, FJ was a historian. He came from a very wealthy Roman family. There is speculation that the Flavian's, under the order of the Emperor, commissioned FJ to write the NT based on the life of Julius Caesar. Note the following references:
(Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity, by Francesco Carotta, 2005).
(Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus, by Joseph Atwill, 2005); and
(Et tu, Judas? Then Fall Jesus!, by Gary Courtney, 1992).
M*W: The Peter=Ptah can be researched with the following:
(Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, by Ahmed Osman, 1990)
(Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion, by Ahmed Osman, 1998)
(The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, by Acharya S., 1999)
(Jesus Christ, Sun of God: Ancient Cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism, by David Fideler, 1961)
(Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha, and Christ Unveiled, by Acharya S., 2004)
M*W: True, you have openly admitted that you cannot prove your god to exist. No one can. So until someone can prove it, you really have no argument. However, your holy book is not what you think it to be. There are many thousands of published contradictions to your bible, and even then it is so subjective to individual interpretation. Even atheists could find quotations that would back our stance, if we cared to look.
M*W: Trust me. I do read books -- lots and lots of books. Just like all the thousands of christian web sites published on the Internet, they are not credible or truthful. Every reference needs to be independenty confirmed.
JME: btw...Proselytizing is simply a matter of making new converts to a belief. Would you not say that what you, yourself are doing, is trying to force your beliefs on me? Your insistence that God does not exist, and your attempt at getting others to agree with this can be viewed as that. I have not been trying to make any converts to a particular belief system. I have stated that God does exist, the Bible is true, and used quotes from the Bible. Nothing more. But if the Bible is true, then a person should read it, and discover for themselves what should be done.[/QUOTE]
M*W: Since atheism is not a religion, there is no way to convert someone to it. Becoming an atheist takes place in the form of a revelation or awakening to the truth, and that's going to happen on an individual basis. It took me years of research before I came to realize christianity was a lie. Then it took me years following that to realize all religion is man-made, including its holy books. Atheism doesn't happen overnight, but when it does awaken our intellect, there is absolutely NO WAY to go back.
So between the works of Carotta and Atwill, the "character" of Jesus simultaneously is actually Julius Caesar, and is the Emperor Titus Flavius in his campaign against the "warlike" Jews. Those Jews must have been very intimidating on those "warlike" donkeys that they rode into battle, according to their laws.
I find it interesting that between these "sources" all I can see are people doing their best to disprove Christianity by changing history. That appears to be the only goal for writing these books...that and making money off of them.
It is also interesting that these "mysteries" have remained "hidden" for a couple thousand years, and suddenly they are more legitimate than established history.
In looking through these "sources", I could not help but notice the many occurrances of "possibly" or "probably", while further search about the texts stated that these were "new ideas", "never before attempted", "never before heard", "potential truth", and "re-interpreted". Plus the fact that at least two of these references contradict each other, and "Caesar's Messiah" is Atwell's only work to date. I cannot see where any stock can be placed on these books.
As for the Ptah=Peter, again, what is your point? That is no different that if I said Jose was a Spanish form of Joseph or Joe. It is irrelavant what the name means.
re·li·gion n. A set of beliefs, values, and practices; A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Let me see, now...Atheism is not a religion...hmm...
Atheism appears to be a belief that there is no god or that God does not exist. Quibble over technicalities of the definition, if you or anyone else wants to do so.
All of the shouting down of anyone with a belief in God on this site certainly appears that this principle is believed with conscientious devotion. You yourself have claimed that you have arrived to this determination by your "Intellect" and not going back is your conscious decision.
Yeah, Atheism is a religion, too.
M*W: So be it. You have no capacity to understand the truth, and I have no capacity to understand your religous beliefs. Again, I will ask... Why are you here? Religion is subjective. It is not factual. You believe in fairy tales. I believe in truth. Nuff said.
This has been through the mill a few times. Needless to say, given that definition everything can be considered a religion - from cross stitch to computer gaming. As a result of that the word 'religion' loses value and meaning and a new word will have to be made up for those that
- Have belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe and a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship
That new word to describe such people would not include atheists.
Regardless of the semantics, not all atheists are zealots.
Neither are all theists.
But, the zealots are the ones that have most of the arguments. We have our fair share of both varieties here.
and if it were proven, would you then believe? That's the beauty. The signs are all around. Yet they still refuse to see.
Actually, if you think about it, there is really no need for anyone to prove anything about God's existence. The fact that you're alive, able to think, rationalize and reproduce should be proof enough. If that doesn't give you a hint, then wait another 40 or 50 years until the moment of your passing, then email us your final thoughts on the subject. O.K.?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
and what signs are they, if you can see them, then isnt it only right, under gods law, you should witness to us, and show us the way.
you do realise that anything you produce in order to prove your case does, need verification.(and not through testimonies, verifiable facts.) if it cannot be verified then it is worthless.
so please go ahead and show us these signs, enlighten us.
"Religion is subjective" BECAUSE you "have no capacity to understand [my] religious beliefs." It is rather strange, although not uncommon, that you have no religious faith, and yet can hold such a strong faith in your "sources" that can neither hold water of themselves, nor can they even remain consistent with other books on the same subject.
This may be "nuff said" for you, but you are no closer to effectively refuting The Bible, or its contents.
Those points which can be proven by history and by archeological evidence and things of a physical nature have shown The Bible to be accurate in its details. Those topics of a spiritual nature, which can never by physically proven, can only be accepted by faith. God gave us the information. It is up to us whether or not we accept it.
Aparantly you have made a choice not to understand why I am here, or you are only throwing out this question to make others wonder. I will spell it out. I am here to answer the initial question presented for this thread. I am here to answer any questions which other subscribers to this thread may have for me. I am here to make comments if I read something to which I disagree, but in doing so, I intend to offer quotes and/or references so that others reading might understand why I disagree. I am here to offer those comments in the spirit of an honest debate. And in doing this, I hope to honor my God by presenting what His Word states is truth.
Your definition is too limited, and does not cover all religions. (It is interesting that definitions have to be changed to disprove the statement.) Simply change your created definition to "A set of beliefs concerning a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe..."
...and yes, "cross stitch" and "computer gaming" could be viewed as rated as a religion, by the definition I gave. God was not just referring to statues, when He said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". This could also be money, hobbies, football, etc. It does not matter what it is.
The word "or" in the definition presented initially does have a significant impact on that statement. It does not necessitate zeal for a religion. It states "zeal or conscientious devotion."
Like I said, not all theists are zealots.
Unfortunately, zealots (both atheist and theist) are more visible, because they are the most argumentative. The result is that most theists think that most or all atheists are zealots, and most atheists think that most or all theists are zealots. It makes productive communication very difficult, because it hides the common ground shared between most theists and atheists.
Preach and convert???? Where did I state that? Have I asked you, or anyone else, to change your opinions or views?
Oral confrontation between two individuals or groups who present arguements to support opposing sides of a question.
Without the relatively few Christians that post to this thread, there would not be much of a debate, then, would there?
And if you understand me, and my reasonings so well, then why bother to keep asking me?
Before my first post, I read the entire debate, up to that point, including the 44 posts before you decided to get involved, on April 11th of last year. And as such, I know that the points that I have made have NOT all been considered, nor have they aparantly been considered since I have made them.
Yes, "many others on this forum have provided endless lists of contradictions" to The Bible, and I have taken the time to look up those references. Every one that was listed were so full of holes and misinformation, that none of them could stand their ground any better than those which you have offered.
If you find something else to be more important or "worth discussing", then please, feel free to go in search of those other conversations. This thread, however, concerns the existence of God. To that end, as I consider this to be a very important question, I intend to remain here.
I will grant you that the information I have offered can be found at practically any bookstore or related website. That is the nice thing about bookstores...you can find books there. And I will bet that I can find the books you have listed, there, too. I have listened to what you had to say. I have looked up the information you have provided, as well as those which others have posted, in order to give the source material the courtesy of inspection. All the information offered has proven inconclusive at best.
I do hope that you have something more to offer, rather than simply trying to shout me down, or trying to ridicule and embarrase me into leaving. While it seems to have worked on most others...
Romans 1:16 - I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth
2 Timothy 1:12 - I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
You really can't prove or disprove that God is real.
I believe in Jesus but I can't prove to anyone that he's real. You have to find what works for you.
Not necessarily. If you wake up 'someday' and find that just about everyone is gone or disappeared (except for some) with crashed autos and airplanes all over. And piles of empty clothes in the streets in the spots where people were walking and maybe with a few barking (bad) dogs, then you can probably figure out that you and some of the others were 'left behind'. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sounds like a Twilight Zone movie! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You come here to preach, here read the bible:
If we lived today by the blind bible bs, we would not survive as a society!
M*W: You didn't have to say it. It's obvious why you're here.
M*W: You are not interested in debate. All you say is what we post is "full of holes," yet you have not offered any debatable rebuttals. Tell us why they are "full of holes." Offer independent research or evidence if you have it. To say that our posts are "full of holes," you must have some extrabiblical research to counter. Using your bible as a reference is the same as preaching. The bible is biased and not historically accurate. Prove to us that it is. Faith is also not credible evidence.
M*W: We debate plenty amongst ourselves.There are many other issues to discuss and debate without the redundancy of christianity always being on the slate.
M*W: I have plenty of knowledge about the christian religion. I don't claim to understand it or accept it, because I don't agree with it. In fact, I despise it for what it has done to humanity. What I don't understand about it is how people can still believe in christianity. It's not the religion I don't understand, it's the people who still believe it!
M*W: I get "involved" in threads where I can learn something or offer something worth sharing.
M*W: Here we go again, so "full of holes!" Can you counter with any unbiased evidence of these "holes" you believe you see.
M*W: The "existence of God" is only of concern to theists. This is a scientific forum for the discussion and debate of evidence-based (not faith-based) religion topics.
M*W: Then what we want from you is to be presented with your "conclusive" proof of evidence, but you have offered us nothing to prove your stance.
M*W: This is not about "shouting you down." I have plenty debate to offer to counter your posts. You are doing a good job of embarrassing yourself. Others who have left have not done it on account of me. After all, this is a debate forum. If you want everyone to agree with you, then go to a christian forum. Nobody forced you to come here.
[/QUOTE]Romans 1:16 - I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth
2 Timothy 1:12 - I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.[/QUOTE]
M*W: Did you post this for debate? If not, then it is preaching. It's obvious why you came here, and it's against the forum rules.
If that is the case, then we are more powerful than God, in that we can dictate the terms by which we come to Him. As the God I follow is All-Powerful, I must, therefore, not have the authority to make the rules. Therefore, I must come to Him on the terms that He sets.
If I did not say it, then that makes it your view of what I am saying. If that is how you perceive my statements, then that is what you will have to deal with.
This would only give one side of this particular issue. Pretty pointless, it
Your knowledge of it is useless without understanding.
IT did nothing. Unfortunately, it was those "leaders" who twisted the faith to
suit their purposes that caused all of the misery which you so despise.
Then why was the founding question of this thread "prove to me that god is real any religion i dont care which just prove to me that your god is real! thanks in advance". While this statement may have been made by another atheist, this opens the floor for a Christian statement/defense. As the faith in the Christian God is included in this question, the use of The Bible as a reference point becomes valid.
I never asked you to.
No, this is not posted for debate, yet it was also not posted for preaching
purposes. These are simply statements which are made and being presented in order to state my beliefs.
As for your stated lack of understanding of the Christian religion, I understand it, but I cannot explain it all to you. That would aparantly be preaching and against the forum rules that you and others seem to be hiding behind.
I have, and do read The Bible...including the "reference" you have posted here.
Again, it is full of holes. This time, I will take the time to explain why I say
so. And if you people really want me to, I will go back to previous posts and
tell why I say that yours and others references provide such weak arguements.
The first thing that you have on this site is a little skit between two people.
One is presenting The Bible to his friend. While he is excited to share its
contents, he obviously does not understand it, nor can he support what little he does know. The responses he gives strongly reflect this lack of understanding, in trying to state that somethings no longer apply.
Matthew 5:17,18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
This shows their lack of understanding and reading of The Bible.
Leviticus 20 - God is making a point, in this passage to set His standards very
high. All of these things that were mentioned were the practices of the
neighboring countries. He let them know just how unacceptable these things were to Him, in the severity of the punishments. This is part of His law. It is deliberately harsh, in order to complete His purpose.
Romans 3:19,20 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
This laid the groundwork to complete the redemption of all people through God's Anointed One.
Besides, if our country had actually followed Biblical teachings, as (I think) it should have done, then the fact that this would call for the death of half of America would not be the case. We would never have gotten to this point, due to the (according to The Bible) proper education of our children and people.
This can show the lack of understanding of his "random page"
Next portion: Exodus 21
"Slavery" was not a matter of slave labor. It was a means to pay off debts. This was more of a hired help type of arrangement. The "servant" worked for six years, and then on the seventh, he/she was freed, and the debt was cancelled. Any retention past the six year time frame was at the choice of the debtee. Forced "slavery" was was only a practice of surrounding areas.
This also shows the lack of understanding concerning another "random page".
The site also tries to state that The Bible is sexist. Following the teachings of Christ, this would not be the case. However, it also shows where people took God's teachings and pushed them into a matter of domination. While many of the church leaders of the area, as written in The Bible, did try to force women into submission, and children even moreso, by Christ's example, children were called to Him for His blessing, and He would even sit specifically to speak with women. Even those others who were considered to be the outcasts of society.
Christ's teachings work to throw out social status restrictions. All people, regardless of race, sex, color, age, occupation, or even health were invited to come to Him.
This is just one more site that was created on the basis of the author's lack of understanding, or lack of reading, or open desire to criticize The Bible.
If you wish, I will go back to some of your other postings. I did keep notes of them, but figured they were too extensive to type them all. Even this is pared down some. Shall I continue?
Separate names with a comma.