Questions about differences in atoms?

[Kumar]

First, a minor correction - the transfer will persist UNTIL equilibrium is reached. It is the difference in temperature (not being in equilibrium) that drives the transfer. And they need not be in direct contact since the transfer can take place through radiation.

Certainly there is a change due to temperature differences. An atom/molecule at a higher temperature vibrates faster DUE to it's higher temperature. And if some of that thermal energy is transfered away, it's rate of vibration decreases.

Means- both molecules will possess new temperature & motion persistently till they are in contact due to their interaction on coming into contant with each other by conduction or, within their radiation field by radiation. OK?

Whether such change can also be called as internal energy transfer or change?

 

[Light]

Means- both molecules will possess new temperature & motion persistently till they are in contact due to their interaction on coming into contant with each other by conduction or, within their radiation field by radiation. OK?

Until their temperatures have equalized, yes.

Whether such change can also be called as internal energy transfer or change?

You may be confusing yourself here just a bit. There is no internal/external energy, the atom/molecule simply has (contains) energy. I suppose it could be said that during the period while heat is being transfered to an atom that it's "internal energy" is increasing but that is not the proper way of stating it. Rather, we simply say "it is gaining energy."

 

[Kumar]

Until their temperatures have equalized, yes.


You may be confusing yourself here just a bit. There is no internal/external energy, the atom/molecule simply has (contains) energy. I suppose it could be said that during the period while heat is being transfered to an atom that it's "internal energy" is increasing but that is not the proper way of stating it. Rather, we simply say "it is gaining energy."

Actually, sometimes transfered heat is also thought lost due to atmospheric effect. But in this case, it will be persistent change in temperature of both molecules/substances. If I am not mistaken, such change may only happen when internal energy of molecules changes. ??

I think different substances have different temperature and internal energy even in same surrounding conditions?

I am considering internal energy as given on following links:-
http://www.engineersedge.com/thermodynamics/specific_internal_energy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_energy

 

[Light]

Actually, sometimes transfered heat is also thought lost due to atmospheric effect. But in this case, it will be persistent change in temperature of both molecules/substances. If I am not mistaken, such change may only happen when internal energy of molecules changes. ??

I think different substances have different temperature and internal energy even in same surrounding conditions?

I am considering internal energy as given on following links:-
http://www.engineersedge.com/thermodynamics/specific_internal_energy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_energy

Yes, you ARE correct in using the term "internal energy" that way. I apologize. Your sentence structures are rather awkward at times and a bit difficult to follow. I've been assuming that English is not your first language and this time I over compensated, sorry.

And yes, there can certainly be atmospheric losses. That would fall under the general case of loss of heat to the environment - be it the atmosphere, other gasses, liquid, solid, or even empty space.

As to the question about different materials and their energy/ temperature, the answer is both yes and no. If they have remained in the same environment long enough, no - there will be no appreciable difference in their temperatures. But as to the actual internal energy content, yes. That's due to a property of matter called 'specific heat.'

 

[Kumar]

Lighted, thanks Light.

Specific heat is wel defined here in our sense:

Temperature is measure of heat energy level whereas heat is a measure of total internal energy contained in a body. When the same quantity of heat is given to equal masses of different substances, they do not result in the same rise in temperature. The specific heat is defined as the quantity of heat energy which will rise the temperature of unit mass (1kg) of a substance by 1 0 C. Heat = mass x specific heat x Temperature rise.
members.tripod.com/pcbolur/basicprocessterms.html

Different substances may have different and specific heat/temperature alike our body has normal temperature. Outside influnces can effect it and balance the temp. differeance between them.

So when we mix two substances or bring them in close contacts, they both will change in some respect. They will persist in same "changed state" till they remain in such contact.

Now, whether properties of those two mixed substances will also change or not due to their "changed states"??

 

[Light]

Lighted, thanks Light.

Specific heat is wel defined here in our sense:



Different substances may have different and specific heat/temperature alike our body has normal temperature. Outside influnces can effect it and balance the temp. differeance between them.

So when we mix two substances or bring them in close contacts, they both will change in some respect. They will persist in same "changed state" till they remain in such contact.

Now, whether properties of those two mixed substances will also change or not due to their "changed states"??

You are quite welcome, Kumar.

As to a change in the properties, no, not really. A reactive substance, as opposed to an inert one, will become more reactive but that is the extent of it. In other words, sodium still behaves as sodium would at any other temperature. Please note that we are talking about 'normal' temperatures and not plasma conditions. Once atoms are partially stripped of their electrons and become free ions, they behave somewhat differently but still a sodium ion is still just a sodium ion. It doesn't, for example, start behaving as a potassium ion.

 

[Kumar]

You are quite welcome, Kumar.

As to a change in the properties, no, not really. A reactive substance, as opposed to an inert one, will become more reactive but that is the extent of it. In other words, sodium still behaves as sodium would at any other temperature. Please note that we are talking about 'normal' temperatures and not plasma conditions. Once atoms are partially stripped of their electrons and become free ions, they behave somewhat differently but still a sodium ion is still just a sodium ion. It doesn't, for example, start behaving as a potassium ion.

Yes very true. But one with fever can be some different still preserving all his properties. Unless there is a chemical reaction and exchange in molecules, basic properties can be similar, if not same.

It looks that there is a difference betwee specific heat transfer and heat transfer(which one got from external heat). On contact, specific heat changes persists but heat may be lost with time. OK?

 

[Light]

Yes very true. But one with fever can be some different still preserving all his properties. Unless there is a chemical reaction and exchange in molecules, basic properties can be similar, if not same.

It looks that there is a difference betwee specific heat transfer and heat transfer(which one got from external heat). On contact, specific heat changes persists but heat may be lost with time. OK?

I can't quite follow this time, Kumar. Would you please try rephrasing just a bit? It might help me a lot.

 

[Jocce]

For some reason Kumar thinks that the thermodynamic equilibrium reached after mixing two substances, or the new state as he phrases it, persist until the remedy is administered to a patient. Must be that he thinks that the effect of the surrounding temperature (eg. room temperature) is insignificant in the specific case of creating homeopathic products.

 

[Kumar]

I can't quite follow this time, Kumar. Would you please try rephrasing just a bit? It might help me a lot.

Sorry, let us take it like it:-

Suppose we dissolve on spoon of salt in one litre of water. In view of these discussions, temperature and internal energy of both will change.

Now suppose we remove salt from that water, can then some changes in water's temperature or internal energy of its molecules will persist or not?

 

[Jocce]

Now suppose we remove salt from that water, can then some changes in water's temperature or internal energy of its molecules will persist or not?

Ok now, one thing at a time. I'll rephrase your question into two parts:

1. Now suppose we remove salt from that water, can then some changes in water's temperature persist or not?

2. Now suppose we remove salt from that water, can then some changes in water's internal energy of its molecules persist or not?

Let's start by number one. You don't find anything strange with that question? What would happen when you raise the temperature in the room? Is temperature a persistant property of something?

 

[Kumar]

Yes, but let us think it if such removal and additions in steps as I am thinking, you know.

 

[Jocce]

And I repeat: "Now suppose we remove salt from that water, can then some changes in water's temperature persist or not?"

You don't find anything strange with that question? What would happen when you raise the temperature in the room? Is temperature a persistant property of something? Please answer this very simple question.

 

[Kumar]

It is said, that atoms can't be kept in excited state for prologed time.

When say lactose is dissolved in water, temp. of both glucose and water molecules will be balanced, Means H2O will be excited. It will persist till sugar is there in solution. How such excitation persists?

 

[Jocce]

It is said, that atoms can't be kept in excited state for prologed time.

Yes that is true. They remain in an excited state for a few nanoseconds before the excited electron emits a photon and thereby returns to the ground state.

When say lactose is dissolved in water, temp. of both glucose and water molecules will be balanced, Means H2O will be excited.

No, it does not mean that H2O is excited.

It will persist till sugar is there in solution. How such excitation persists?

There is no excitation.

Now, answer my question. Is temperature a persistant property or not?

 

[Kumar]

Yes that is true. They remain in an excited state for a few nanoseconds before the excited electron emits a photon and thereby returns to the ground state.



No, it does not mean that H2O is excited.



There is no excitation.

Now, answer my question. Is temperature a persistant property or not?

Temperature can be a persistant property if internal energy decide it or external influences are persitant. We have persistant body temperature...till..

Whether a hotter substance is in excited state or not?

 

[Jocce]

Internal energy doesn't "decide" anything and as you say, temperature will persist until you change the thermodynamic conditions.

And once again, temperature is a measure of the average random motion of the atoms and therefore it is completely irrelevant to talk about it on the scale of one single atom which you seem to be doing with all that about excited states.

 

[Kumar]

internal energy
n. (Symbol U)
The total kinetic and potential energy associated with the motions and relative positions of the molecules of an object, excluding the kinetic or potential energy of the object as a whole. An increase in internal energy results in a rise in temperature or a change in phase.
And

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_energy

Can this internal energy create persistan temperature?

 

[Jocce]

Can this internal energy create persistan temperature?

No, not directly. The hypomolecular tribitoid effect will cancel out the thermomediation. This results in a slight increase of entropediac rest but other than that, no change in quantum emissions has been observed.

Hope it is clearer now.

 

[Kumar]

Can you make it bit simple for me?