I challange any one who can convince me that God really exists. People who believe that God exists are fools. e.g. does anyone remember when the Air France Concorde crashed? Remember when the British girl jumped from the hotel window and survived the explosion. She says that she now believes in God because she survived. Is she some kind of special person that God thought that she had to live and that the hundred or so people had to die, I think not. God moves in misterious ways! That saying is an excuse for fools blind faith. Jesus and his flock! how correct that saying is, baa! baa! baa!. When people finally reallise that there is know caring God then only then can we have peace on this earth. Cristians Muslams ect, please wake up before it's too late.
UFO, Lennin said that religion is the opiate of the masses (not an exact quote). Certainly it has played well for those who desire control over others (power). On the other hand, life is so curiously perfect; there is structure to our existence. If there is a god, it just may not be as compassionate as some believe. ------------------ It's all very large.
If I could make a slight change to your post I could agree with you: "ORGANIZED religion is for fools" (or sheep). You say that you want proof. Will you accept subjective proof? (I know that my Gods are real, I've talked to Them!) Or do you insist on objective proof. I contend that it is impossible to have objective proof of the existance of the devine. Either way, how do you think you will be able to judge the validity of any of the claims? ------------------ Greenwood priest
UFO2000 Fool: A person with little or no judgment, common sense, wisdom, etc. Of those I know who have strong religious beliefs could not be described as fools. So I do not think, that on the whole, I could support your topic title. The problems lie elsewhere. During the thousands of years that people have made claims for a god there remains no objective proof. If such unambiguous proof existed then we would not need or have this ‘wonderful’ message board with which we amuse ourselves. A more appropriate term to describe those that follow a religion is irrationality. And this is not intended as a derogatory term but strictly technically. Those that believe in a religion where proof is not available resort to stressing the term faith as if this term justifies their position; it does not. Faith, put simply, is belief without proof. Theists of course will claim that it means much more but in essence they will be incorrect. To believe in something based on evidence, is the essential definition of rationality, and is the cornerstone of our science and the way we survive without resorting to chaos and anarchy. To believe without evidence is simply the opposite of rationality – irrationality. Now you might be able to argue that if someone acts irrationally then they are also foolish, perhaps, but I think the two terms are qualitatively very different. In the end people tend to believe what they want despite rational arguments. Many people simply can’t think clearly and depend on others to lead them, so the sheep analogy is very apt for many aspects of life. Someone once told me that 95% of the population act like sheep most of the time. An example is watching a movie – a large number of sheep (failures) watching the 5% successful few (millionaire actors). Have fun whatever Cris
Greenwood priest, Subjective 'proof' is never going to be acceptable to non-theists. Talking to invisible gods is one thing, but if you could get them to audibly reply in front of a large audience, then you might have something. However, if they reply and you don't have a witness then check with a therapist before telling anyone else. Have fun whatever Cris
well i think your the weekminded one..... ufo.... sure, im a athiest, but i ahve more to back up my beileifs than a concord crash... -dexter ------------------ when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages! THANK GOD FOR ATHEISM! voice mail: 1-800-222-6000 pin#- 2442235
Actually, a Concord crash is proof of God's existence. Check with Freddie Phelps and the "God Hates" Ministry. They came to Seattle a couple of weekends ago to tell us how God made an Alaska Airlines plane crash to kill off two specific sinners. Sure, it's excessive ... but if you're God ... what's a little excess now and then? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I actually have nothing of value to contribute as of yet other than that less-than-valuable counterpoint. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
UFO2000, I would think that it would be beneath your dignity to waste your time debating with fools, UFO. You have my permission to move on to a challenge more worthy of your superior intellect, as I have no desire to convince you of anything. Blessings, Emerald ------------------ An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Do you agree that if there were no religion the world would be a far better place? Greenwood priest, you said that you have spoken to your gods, how many gods do you have? Would it not be far better to concentrate on being a better person than to squabble over who's god is the true god. We don't need a god but we do need each other. If people would put half as much energy in to believing in them selves instead of praying to 'their god' then we would be well on the way to having a decent existance.
"no objective proof" exists...hm. Well, I used to think along those lines. But have you ever stopped to look at the "simple" and "mundane" things around you? Have you ever wondered how it is that everything is so perfect, so consistent? Gravity never forgets to work. The sun never forgets to shine, the earth never forgets to spin. The moon never skips a phase. The natural laws of this universe are what makes all these things happen, but who made that Natural Law? Did you ever wonder why the moon is precisely the right size to eclipse our sun? How is it that it ended up at precisely the right distance, precisely the right diameter? Very pretty, isn't it? Have you ever noticed how for each disease mankind suffers there is a cure in nature? Some we haven't found yet, and never will if we keep destroying our environments, but they're there, we just have to find them. To me, these are proof that there is some sort of awareness beyond ourselves, some sort of Divine being that strives towards balance and beauty. I don't believe in 'chance'. Chance is the word we use to describe things we don't understand all the way. It appears "random", but if you could have the knowledge of the Divine, it's not random at all. Besides, like Greenwood Priest, They have spoken to me directly. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But not until after I opened my mind to Them. You can't expect to hear the Divine when you've got both fingers jammed into your ears and you're yelling "lalalalalalalalala". Get those fingers out of your ears, shut up, and get out there in nature if you want to meet God. I know it sounds corny, but if you open your eyes and your heart, you won't be disappointed. You ask how many gods there are. As many as you can imagine. Each "god" is merely an aspect of the One Divine source that exists within this universe. We as humans can't deal with that sort of thing, so we see bits and pieces of It and give It names and associate different aspects with that Named bit. Just like we name the individual stars, though they are just part of the Universe. Call the Gods by whatever names are familiar and loved by you, They will respond. Chris, You say; "Talking to invisible gods is one thing, but if you could get them to audibly reply in front of a large audience, then you might have something." Aye, the Gods have nothing better to do with their time then perform like circus monkeys. And really, if you were in this audience and heard an audible voice, would you be convinced it was God?? Would you be more convinced if you were alone in a wild natural space, and unmistakably heard a voice speaking to you when there was no body present, and no way someone was playing a trick on you? Or do you need pomp and circumstance, bullhorns and some sweaty preacher dancing around under spotlights screaming to "Jeee-sus!"?? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Alright, It's time for me to get in on this. UFO2000 wants proof of a God. There is no objective proof, if you want it done scientifically - that is, you can not run experiments on God in a laboratory, but there is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence. Mooncat brought up one fact - the order and design in the universe (though I must vehehemntly denounce his/her false belief in polytheism). Another piece of circumstantial evidence is the fact that we have so many ancient manuscripts of the Bible, which agree with each other on all major doctrines to 99.9% (excluding trivial 'typos' like spelling errors, rearranged word order, and repeated words). How many do we have? Several thousand manuscripts survive, in a dozen or so languages. The only historical manuscript that even comes close to that is the Illiad & Odessy, with only a couple hundered manuscripts (or less). If we can believe the accounts of historians such as Josephus, or the ancient manuscript biography of Alexander the Great to be accurate history, based on merely a few copies - sometimes just one - how much more can we trust the Bible to be a reliable historical source? Especially since the a large portion of the New Testament can be dated to within a generation of the actual events it describes, whereas most historical documents see several hundered years of time between the event and our earliest manuscript. There is more evidence, such as causality, thermodynamics, the fossil record, etc.., but let me skip to another important one. To make this point, let me ask you a question: What is 'good', where did 'good' come from, and why is it 'good'? BTW, I do like Mooncat's illustration. PLEASE take your fingers out of your ears, shut-up, and listen. In other words, it's not worth arguing about it if you've already made up your mind. [This message has been edited by Caleb (edited September 26, 2000).]
Caleb, Hm, you believe my polytheistic beliefs are false. Can you prove to me it's wrong? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I didn't think so. You can "denounce" my "false" beliefs, should I then denounce or pity your limited beliefs? You see only one of the many aspects of the Divine, I have witnessed at least 3 aspects, two feminine and one masculine. Perhaps we could look at it this way - God knows you and I are vastly different people. So God, in It's infinite wisdom, appears to you in the Christian format, which you seem to be comfortable with, and appears to me in the Pagan format, which I am very comfortable with. Who is "right" and who is "wrong"? We both are, and neither of us are. God told me that personally. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Do you think a mere book, no matter how many times it's been copied down and translated, can encompass all that is the Divine force in the universe? God is so much more than what the bible speaks of. The bible is limited, flawed. Just like the humans that wrote it all down in the first place. God is what you think "He" is, and also what I think "They" are, and so much, much more. By the way, I am most definitely female. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Part of it, simply,is that neither Josephus nor Alexander claimed to be of God in any way similar to Jesus. Josephus is an historian; he wrote his times. We can believe him as well as we can any AP writer. Just as the AP contains facts inherently botched from the event to the retelling, so we accept of Josephus. How many authors contributed to the biography of Alexander the Great? When we look at the Bible, though, we see an anthology comprised of what is now two religions, a smattering of format, and political revisionism. How many authors does the Bible have? How many edits and rewrites have the texts been through? I mean, I'm quite sure there are several copies of The Gospel of Thomas, or The Gospel of Mary, but these were not included in the canon; it seems cohesiveness for "The Bible" was pulled from a fair-sized data source. How many of those thousands of manuscripts are copied from a former version? Okay ... an example derived from Jack Cady .... Can we agree that "Oldsmobile" exists? The definitive, objective nature by which you or I might believe Oldsmobile to be a real thing in the world, so did the superstitious Christians ... especially from the sixth century on ... believe in the Devil. Now, if you're a scribe entrusted to copy what you believe--with all the certainty that I believe there's an Oldsmobile in my driveway--to be the Word of God ... will you not feel compelled to do it accurately? What hell is promised the errant scribe? I recently read through an article on Did Jesus Really Raise Lazarus From the Dead?, which I found interesting, in the end, more for its presentation than its puerile assertions and gutless conclusions. But the author refers to the "editing" process of the Johannine evangelism ... and, as his purpose is to harmonize John with the Synoptics, he reminds the reader that events in the Bible need not have taken place exactly as written--a notion unacceptable to many of the faith. Specifically, the factors which I think have the greatest effect on the credibility of the Bible, as per the quote I've excerpted, would be: * Number of authors (legion) * Claims of the Bible (Jesus as Redeemer/supernatural/eternal) * Literary precedent (Noah's Ark is my favorite; it's almost word-for-word from the Babylonian.) * Political development (the movement which centers itself around this book found its roots, initially, attempting to reconcile its differences with traditional Judaism, and then eventually slandering Judaism altogether) * Politics/period (the period which had passed from the beginning of the political movement and the canonization of the Gospels.) * Interpretational (I, personally, reject the notion that the Old Testament prophets spoke of Jesus. In order to accept a Christian interpretation of much of the Old Testament, I must necessarily ignore the Jews in history.) But, as with any resolution about history, I'm aware that there is no closure or definitive conclusion. But, based on what I have at hand, the above are the best reasons I can give regarding the perceived discrepancy between our regard for Josephus and our regard for the Bible. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
“Mooncat brought up one fact - the order and design in the universe” She brought up nothing but questions asking how/why. No one needed to be around to make the laws of the universe, and the moon isn’t big enough to block out the sun’s corona, so it doesn’t totally eclipse it. “If we can believe the accounts of historians such as Josephus” We can’t (at least not on all accounts), unless you want to also believe Hercules really did exist (yes, he wrote about him). Look it up for yourself at this website: http://wesley.nnu.edu/josephus/ Look up these passages: 1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1 “how much more can we trust the Bible to be a reliable historical source?” About as much as you trust the Iliad and the Odyssey to be reliable history. “Especially since the a large portion of the New Testament can be dated to within a generation of the actual events it describes” Well, since there are nothing but copies of copies of the New Testament, we can’t accurately date it at all. We can speculate, but we can’t get an exact date. “There is more evidence, such as causality” The old “something can’t come from nothing except my god” argument right? “thermodynamics” You mean the second law of thermodynamics that states energy can’t be fully transformed into work? Oh yeah, silly me, that disproves evolution and proves your god exists, somehow. “the fossil record” Hmm, not sure exactly what you would say here. Probably something along the lines that all the creatures that were fossilized are “fully formed”, or that there are no transitional fossils. Rather silly arguments, since there are transitional fossils, and since “fully formed” is never defined very well, and could mean any number of things. “What is 'good', where did 'good' come from, and why is it 'good'?” Not sure what you mean, since it’s so subjective. What is good? Having desirable or positive qualities especially those suitable for a thing specified. Where did it come from? It’s an Old English word with Germanic origin, it’s a derivative of the word ghedh, meaning to unite, fit, or join. Why is it good? It’s only good if the person thinks it is, it’s subjective.
. Profile for UFO2000 Location:England Interests:UFOs,ghosts,Alien big cats Welcome UFO2000. Hope to visit you country some day. I respect all peoples beliefs or non beliefs, be they strange, crazy, or whatever. My only rule is, don't push it or hurt those who believe differently than you or I do. We all know that you can’t prove it one way or the other, so I'll just leave it at that. Anyway your profile indicates you are interested in Ghosts. This seems to contradict what you say you believe. To most people Ghosts implies an afterlife of some sort. I’m confused.........but this may be my normal state. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
How does the nature of the universe prove the existence of a devine plan. We are only small animals living on a relatively tiny rock in a relatively small solar system which is just a speck inside a galaxy which is only one of MANY. Now these relatively insignificant products of the universe are trying to make sense of the big picture....no freakin wonder we can't comprehend it...but our limitations to grasp the concept of such a thing doesn't automatically make it a devine plan. You need to remember that our ENTIRE understanding of the universe is based on the experiences we've encounted on this tiny insignificant spec of dust in the universe, 1 perspective. If you had the means to travel back in time and demonstrate modern technology to ancient people you too would be a GOD...why? because the people who would see you as a god would only be able to describe your skills as devine.... I really don't understand how you christain god botherer's get any sense of divinity from the freakin bible. The only way I could call your god devine is if I ignored most of whats written in it. It baffles me how you can go on believing your flawed and a sinner just because some ancient STORY (which doesn't exist in any fossil records or fit into any accepted model of evolution) tells you that some dumb arse woman was tempted to take a bite out of a freakin apple!!!!! HELLO!!!! Theres nothing devine about writing scary stories in an effort to control the ignorant. Further Christainity didn't become popular because its devine or the truth or any of that...its became popular by breaking every comandment it stands for. Then it kept its strangle hold on those nations by scaring its flock with ETERNAL DAMNATION...that would have worked brilliantly when the world was iliterate and ignorant. The means DON'T justify the ends, ignoring THAT truth doesn't make your religion rightous. Its common for every animal to fear their own mortality, we have an instinct to survive that is the reason we have survived...we NEED to calm ourselves by believing that we will cheat death, through technology that is going to be achievable in the not so distant future, and then perhaps people will start to see the bible for what it really is...propoganda and hokey myths designed to scare people into submission. I'm not suprised its so attractive to so many people I mean if you believe it then you don't need to be accountable for your actions, just be really sorry and your imaginary god will forgive you. You don't need to come to terms with mortality 'cause your going to spend eternity with your imaginary god. So to the thiests out there, pull YOUR fingers out of your ears, take the rose coloured glasses off and try to learn about your place in this universe by using rational thought and REAL EVIDENCE instead of myths and voices in your heads. [This message has been edited by Rambler (edited September 26, 2000).]
This is beautifully written Mooncat, a very heart felt post, thank you for being so open. Now we both know each other fairly well, we understand what the other believes fairly well also. Working from that and in the spirit of friendship I would like to dig a bit deeper on some things you have said, not in an way that would cause animosity but to hopefully show us a few things we may be missing. I agree that God is a God of order, not order in the sense of our understanding but in the sense that with Him there is a time and a season for everything. Nothing was created without reason, nothing suffered without reason, nothing is sustained without reason. And these reasons are God's reasons, not mans. Now this is interesting! Caleb brought up that he opposes the idea of polytheism which I think hit a nerve with you "though I must vehemently denounce his/her false belief in polytheism". It would be good Caleb to explain you stance and the reason for it. But back to "this is interesting". I know having had many conversations with you that you have a good heart Mooncat, that you do seek to find, that you do knock, that you do ask. I know that you have given an open invitation to any deity to reveal themself to you, so that you may know "your path", and I know that this has lead you to where you are today. But something you mentioned above has surprised me, I never knew that you believed in "One Divine source". You then go on to say: I love what you wrote, it reminds me of the various ways that God revealed Himself to various individuals throughout the OT, no two ways were the same, every account was different but at the same time they all had a common factor, His Holiness, and His very character and nature. Every encounter was an encounter that glorified God, not man. I think what blows me away most is that you sound like an echo of me but from a differing stance. How we attempt to feebly confine God to mere words on a page, I agree no words can completely encompass all that God is. He exceeds our understanding, He exceeds our finite ability with the senses we have to fully comprehend all that He is. Yet this mere book as you put it gives me the best insight, the best historical consistency, the best understanding of the very character and nature of my Lord and God, the best understanding of what has happened and why, of what I as a person have subjectively experienced. How we attempt to limit Him is to our shame, how we go about expressing Him at times is just as shameful and worse, especially when we leave people with the image you so eloquently described: It does make my heart break, I feel so saddened that we who are supposed to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth do no justice to the truth of who God is and what He has done for humankind. I am sorry that you are left with the above impression, I am sorry that you don't see the bible as a source of inspiration. Yes I know all the arguments for and against it, we've discussed it before, but of all the historical texts that I have studied none come nearly as close to giving a clearer picture of the God we seek , each and every one of us. I'm so sorry Mooncat that we the body of Christ have left you seeing only hype and razzamatazz. Again I find my heart hearing something new about you. I would have to say I agree and disagree, yes and no. Yes, God is so much, much more than any living man, woman or child could ever comprehend at one moment. But no, God is not what you or I or Caleb or even the Pope or Anton Levay may think that He is. God is who He says He is I AM THAT I AM. BESIDE ME THERE IS NO OTHER. I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST He is who He says He is, we are so limited in our perception, we are so limited in our knowledge and understanding, how can any one of us step up and shout "THIS IS IT" I've got the truth and the rest of you are goners! How can we be so arrogant? How can we be so intolerant? How can we be so narrow minded? How can we be sure? mmmmm.... how can we be sure? How am I so sure that my God is right? How is Mooncat so sure that her god's are right? How is S7 so sure that her objectivity is right? How is Tiassa sure about anything? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The best we can do is to share with each other the testimony of our faith, the best I can do is to share the hope that I have and why I have it, the best we can do is to inspire each other on in the quest for the truth, the best is to open and honest. I believe what I believe because of doing just that, because I cried out with a heart felt cry, I cried out with a cry that echoed in heaven, I cried out to God to show me. I don't know who or what you are God but I need you and want you to help me, and He answered. Many know my story from Overview and Dreams and Visions, I know because I now know Him, I know because of how He answered me. Others can only know by how He answers them, as individuals where they are at. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus was not talking about the physical, He was the living expression of the very character, nature and attributes of God confined to the form of a man, confined to the ravages of time, Confined to and subject to the very things that affect us in order to show that God has not abandoned nor ever will abandon the creation of His own hand. He came to offer hope, He came to give Himself in our place, He came that we may be restored to the Father, so that we would not need to suffer the consequences of our ways, so that we would be set free from the law of sin and death. So again I say God is who He says He is, God has shown us aspects of who He is in the form of a man and in the words on a page, God has given Himself for us and yet we do not see and do not try to understand it. I believe Mooncat my friend that God will use the things that surround you to bring you to this understanding, I believe this because I believe that your heart seeks the truth. Not my truth or experiences, not the truth according to Tony but the truth according to Him and who He says He is and what He says He has done and how He reveals Himself to you. Keep listening Mooncat, keep asking, searching, seeking. I know I sound like a broken record, saying the same things over and over again, if I didn't think it was important I would just shut up. Please do find that place of solitude, surrounded by the beauty of Gods creation and ask Him, the "One Divine Source" to show you, to clear your mind and heart of preconceived ideas that you may have of Him. Away from the sweaty preachers jumping around and dancing under spotlights, away from the pomp and hype, away from all the distractions, just mention His name. Just call on His name and ask Him to speak with you, not just an open invite to anyone but specifically addressing Him. No party tricks, no hype, no games, no gimmicks, no nothing. Just you and Him one on One, its where the rubber meets the road on this slippery ride called life. Truth or lies? You find out. I suppose that what I'm asking sounds like a challenge, honestly I don't mean it to. You've got nothing to lose, it will either prove to you and you alone the truth or it won't. Its your heart Mooncat, its your decision, its yours and yours alone, and its the same for anyone who chooses to do so. But I would like to say one thing in closing, if a person decides to seek with a sincere heart, to ask with pure motives. If you come to this place and do this then be aware, you may find that all you every held to as true, all that you ever believed in as a person, all that you are will be thrown into turmoil. God will answer and if you want the truth more than the air you breath He will hear your heart, He will challenge your heart, He will cleanse and make whole your heart and in the process it will turn your life upside down. But He will do so in His love and gentleness, His love will confront any darkness and His gentleness with sooth any sorrow. Be aware that there is a cost, it costs your life. Because the truth if you want it confronts our lives. I believe, do you? Allcare Tony H2o Rambler, Hey buddy, enjoying the games yet? Not much else to watch on the telly hey?
Hi Tony, Woah long post... Somewhat on topic Q'n for ya...if you were given the tech to aquire imortality would you take it??? Kinda sick of the games. I enjoy watching the dream. Don't know if you caught it last night but there was a moment where I nearly pissed myself laughing...it was a cut to a break and they had a snip of greko-roman wrestling...the music they played behind it was Barry White's "Can't get enough of your love--Baaabby"....ROFL still makes me laugh....Oh and Kathy Freeman, freakin politics!!!!! I'm starting to resent her for it...I know I shouldn't but COME ON!!!!!! enough already!!!! we have MUCH better athlete's to be calling ledgend and giving honors like lighting the cauldron.
I am only certain because I believe that anything in the world is possible. Religion, by any definition, prevents this state of mind. I am certain because, even if I am wrong, knowing that anything is possible, I will eventually figure out how and why. I will quote Morrolan e'Drein, fictional warrior, sorcerer, and general pain in the ass, who, upon wandering, lost, about the Land of the Dead, was heard to remark to his companion, Vlad, that, "Sooner or later, we must arrive somewhere." It was not until I left the path that I knew there were other trails. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
Short answer, (if I can manage one short answer) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! No. You me and most of Oz pal, and yeah ya gotta confess that wrestling is weird, it should be a mixed sport by the looks of it. I wanna know what happened to the Hulk Hogans of the wrestling world Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Later mate. Allcare Tony H2o PS I'm not schitzo either, how about you Tony? No I'm fine, how about you Tony? No I'm fine, how about you Tony? No I'm fine, how about you Tony?No I'm fine, how about you Tony?No I'm fine, how about you Tony?No I'm fine, how about you Tony?No I'm fine, how about you Tony? Enough already you guys, knock it off will ya I'm trying to sleep in here! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
