Religious proofs are nonsensical

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dinosaur, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Replying to my posts is therefore pointless. So is your life pointless?
     
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  3. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Probably.
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Non sequitur. This does not follow.
     
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  7. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Why does it concern you?
     
  8. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Are you trying to tell us that talking to you is pointless? Because you are starting to be convincing at last.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You're in this discussion, making invalid assertions.
    I'm in this discussion too, and calling out invalid assertions, so we can stay on track.
    That's how forum discussions work.
     
  10. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    What did you last discuss? Did I answer it?
     
  11. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    You gave me nothing

    I do
    That's been the case all along. Not my plan but just a fact of life

    Now meet my little friend Iggy

    *CLICK*

    And another one bites the dust
    Son of a bitch he was preaching
    Not in my post

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  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Chairperson, the opponent is being argumentative in an attempt to derail the topic.
     
  13. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Where did I preach big man?
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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  15. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure you understand.
    To introduce "pragmatism" is to introduce values (how can one be pragmatic without some end in mind?).
    If you want to say you entertain doubt to the degree it is pragmatic to do so, what is that value that drives that pragmatism?
    And is that value, subject to doubt?
    And if it is subject to doubt, then you are not containing doubt by pragmatism (and if it's not, you don't have a thoroughly tentative world view)

    He didn't jump ascend into a different meta-reality with a sense of self that was alienable to his previous one, did he?
    One "world" may be alienable (aka tentative) compared to another, but the self remains constant (along with its baggage of self evident truths, such as the notion of not feeling hungry).
     
  16. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    1,379
    Nor I you.
    Funny that.
    Yes, values that are, nonetheless, open to change.
    The value that drives that pragmatism is confidence.
    Confidence is tentative in that it is never absolute, i.e. there is room for doubt.
    In such a worldview, yes, it would be.
    It would be a constantly shifting matter, dynamic between values of zero and total.
    Just because the values may constantly change does not mean that there is no containing.
    A ballon changes shape as the quantity of air inside increases or decreases, but whatever amount is in the balloon is still contained.
    Are you suggesting that the The Matrix offers the only possibility?
    If so then I would concur with you, but since my comment was intended to be considered beyond just the philosophy of a single film...
    I consider that an unwarranted assumption.
    Not to mention the issues our bodies can have in distinguishing between hunger and thirst.


    Anyhow, remind me of the reason for exploring this sideline, please?
    Perhaps we should revert to the main track, as uninteresting as this sideline is.
     
  17. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Ok then, fast forward to the car chase, since the scene before it is becoming too prolonged for the auduence. (Hopefully they won't have to hit rewind afterwards because they can't understand what is going on)

    "I think therefore I am". We can doubt so many things, but there is a realm where absolute doubt belongs to (mostly) either the insane or the amnesiac. If you arise at the point of doubting what you are doubting with, where are you? (Hopefully not in some sort of hospital)

    A worldview without recourse to self evident truths (as perceived by the seer) is a worldview in name only.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  18. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    And there was me thinking a request to return to the main track was just that.
    Hey ho.
    One would hope that the doubt one has in such matters would be low, but I see no need for it to be absent, hence the issue of confidence and pragmatism.
    Yet, per wiki at least, there are those who hold there to be no self-evident truths at all (although I have yet to find any further detail... still trying, though).
     
  19. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    What do atheists like yourself, think God is? I assume you, or other atheists who think God is possible, must know what evidence is lacking, in order to think God is possible.

    I don't see it as insulting.
    Where have I insulted you?

    I believe I have given some decent arguments, and explanations in the past. Perhaps you will see more when I get a decent opponent.

    All milk based products have one thing in common. Milk.
    All atheists have one thing in common. There is no God.
    From there, you can say what you like, but that will always remain.

    Why would I be deluded?

    You asked "do you have anything else", as though you've toppled it. I have yet to see that on here.
    You see, my point had bearing.
    It is your emotion-based responses that have no bearing.

    It gives the wrong impression.

    I've told you what it is.

    Someone can be aware of the whole of the knowledge of the planet?
    That's what I mean by the entire whole.

    You've explained nothing of any relevance. As individuals, everything we think, is just one.

    I am not aware of any unicorns existing on this planet, and because of that, I don't believe they exist, in this planet.
    That's my position.

    Do what deliberately?

    It doesn't matter what I think. Like some atheists think God is possible, I can think unicorns are possible. I can even convince myself they exist, and pretend to believe. But the harsh reality is, they don't exist as far as I am aware.

    I have said in my heart, thus there are no unicorns. I am, in the same position as an atheist (with regards unicorns)

    Jan.
     
  20. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    I would go with that
    You see / experience something - what would be self evident about it?

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  21. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    And so we go round again, where it stops, nobody knows.

    We think God is a possible explanation for the cause of everything.
    But since I don't know what evidence would suffice to show God exists, I also can't say I know what evidence would suffice to show that God doesn't exist, not to mention the issues of evidence for a negative when one can not examine the whole etc.
    One day you may come to realise that that is actually irrelevant.
    By analogising with the role of atheist being played by a white supremacist.
    I'm sorry if you don't find that insulting.
    Maybe reporting you for it will sharpen your mind to it?
    Why would the quality of your own argument be affected by your perception of the quality of opponent?
    An argument or explanation is not like a sports game where one is directly influenced by what the opponent does.
    Further, what you believe you have given is again pretty irrelevant to what is actually out there.
    If only your analogy was accurate.
    All you are stating in your analogy is actually that "all atheists are atheists".
    If your understanding of atheism is "There is no God" then, as explained many times before, you are working off a flawed understanding.
    It is like saying "all milk-based products have one thing in common: yoghurt".
    Because you would be believing something despite their being superior evidence to the contrary.
    No, I asked if you have anything else because the KCA has threads devoted to it already.
    Do you have anything else?
    It did?
    What bearing does saying that you don't think atheists have covered off the KCA have to do with me asking if you have anything else apart from the KCA, which is covered in another thread (or more)?
    Emotion-based?
    Ah, an effort by you to deflect from their content.
    I get it: you can't deal with the argument so claim they are emotion-based and can thus be ignored.
    Classic Jan.
    To who, and how?
    Whether I state point 1 followed by point 2 or the other way round, what difference does it honestly make, Jan?
    Answer: it doesn't and it is just more of your dishonest approach to debates, to raise issue where there are none in an attempt to discredit without addressing.
    No, you've told me what you think it is, and I have offered a valise alternative.
    Yes, they can theoretically have the required knowledge of an entire planet.
    "As individuals, everything we think, is just one"?
    Care to explain this claim further?
    I am not sure of the point you are trying to make.
    I have no problem with that, but it might not be everyone's position.
    Another position, starting with the same premise of not being aware of any unicorns existing on this planet, might be that they simply have no belief as to whether unicorns exist or do not exist on this planet.
    they neither believe that unicorns do exist, nor do they believe that unicorns do not exist.
    Do you understand this distinction between your view and theirs, despite being built on the same premise of not being aware?
    Omit any consideration of the valid alternative.
    In the example of the unicorn you would claim that everyone who is not aware of unicorns existing on this planet would believe that unicorns do not exist.
    You seem incapable of accepting that the alternative (that I have offers above, that they might instead conclude that they neither believe unicorns exist nor believe they do not exist) is valid.
    Until you do accept it, and until you are able to discuss it as such rather than holding every atheist as if they hold a single view, your arguments on such matters will only ever be relevant to atheists that hold the view you expect of them.
    And as said, we can say that we are not aware of unicorns because we know what to expect with regard evidence.
    Remove knowledge of what such evidence would be and some would say that we can no longer even claim that we are not aware of unicorns not existing.
    YOU have said in your heart that but it is not a necessary position to take if you are not aware of the existence of unicorns.
    YOU have jumped to the conclusion from the partial awareness of the whole to a belief about the whole.
    Please try to understand that not everyone takes such a jump.
    Can you grasp that?
    If one does not know something about a whole but only knows something about a part of the whole, why do you continually insist that everyone has jumped to a conclusion about the whole?
    Why do you struggle with people who, because they don't know, choose to abstain from belief in matters?
     
  22. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    All milk based products have one thing in common. Milk.

    Anybody milked a cow?

    Anybody milked a coconut?

    Any differences?

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  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Why do you?
    What is the difference between that, and claiming God does not exist? From your perspective.

    So it's just lip service. OK.

    Truth is irrelevant?
    That explains alot.

    As I have told you, many times before, there is no God for the atheist. Hence the request for evidence of God's existence.
    But you got that analogy right this time.
    You are atheist, and what it precisely entails (the thing you all have 100% in common)

    Yes.
    Google Bill Craig.

    What argument?

    No. I've explained what I meant.
    All you offer is an attempt to obfuscate.

    How could it be possible for one to obtain knowledge of an entire planet?
    I'm genuinely interested.

    You said..

    Yet your view is just one when you are not aware of the existence of unicorns on this planet.

    My point, there are only single (as in your "just one") thoughts, by individuals.

    I didn't say it was.
    But, unless someone is aware of the existence of unicorns, unicorns do not exist, no matter how differently you may think you think.

    I guess we have to agree to disagree.

    They may think that unicorns could possibly exist, so they do not intellectualy opt for disbelief. But they have to lack belief by default.

    You seem to think we can believe something because we feel like it.

    I'm simply not aware of unicorns. Period. When I become aware of them, I'll believe they exist.

    IOW, it's not worth busting a nut over.

    I haven't taken a position. It naturally follows I have no knowledge, or perception of the existence of unicorns.

    It's not a jump. I have no choice but to disbelieve unicorns exist. But as I said, if it turns thy do exist It will follow that I must believe they exist (even if pretend to carry on my disbelief)

    People are free agents, and they can choose what they like. I'm not talking about what folk choose to do.


    Jan
     

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