(split) Atheism and acceptance of science

Thats not independent of the organism... you said:

but you're selecting strains of the organism, not the gene. How does glucose oxidation ability of the cherry picked strain of Penicillium funiculosum tell you anything about the fitness of the gene overall?

 

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It certainly bloody is independent of the organism. The individual cells (organisms) aren't surviving, you understand, Sam. Or are you referring to the species? This, too would be irrelevant though, since your request was related to the advantage conferred by specific genes.

You're selecting strains with an enhanced ability for synthesis of glucose oxidase. If you selected a single individual, the outcome would be the same. Strain selection is a simple logistical tool for selecting the gene.

You stated above that you wished to review the methods for such an experiment. I have provided one, and you now have the opportunity to do so. I cannot help you indefinitely.

 

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Oh, there's a lot of good effort and fascinating results available - but your approach here is blind to them. Hence my refusal. But if Geoff is willing to make the attempt, perhaps we will see gratitude from you?

 

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So the information you obtained is representative of the gene in any organism? Or just the one selected?

 

Sam, please don't change your posts after posting to alter their meaning. I realize this is just something you do, but the addition of the phrase "cherry-picked" is unnecessary and completely inaccurate.

 

You're selecting for a strain of one organism over all others [all other strains, all other organisms]. Based on what?

 

?? Other systems will operate in other ways according to their physiology, reproductive characteristics and/or mechanistics and genetic architecture. Yet, any number of models exist for evolutionary processes.

Now: have you reviewed the specific dynamics of the article I cited? I know you're not in the lab right now, but you should probably have access from off-campus.

 

So this data is specific to this strain of this organism only?

[I want to clarify the sampling method before reading the paper]

PS I don't have access to this journal.

 

The top down, creationist approach again. It's a characteristic, I think. The potential general advantages of an atheistic worldview, in avoiding one apparent path into this trap, are immediately obvious.

 

Are you suggesting that questioning the sampling procedure is a creationist approach? These are the first and foremost questions asked of anyone who does this type of experiment.

ie why did you select this cell model or organism or mouse model or rat strain above all others. Especially when you begin by claiming that your results are independent of the organism used. And suggestions that anyone who thinks otherwise is a closet theist. I'd like to see how well that goes over at the annual Experimental Biology conference

Meanwhile, I asked for an example of a publication where the fitness of the gene is estimated independent of the organism and we are provided with the estimation of glucose oxidation activity in mutants of a strain of an organism selected for its GO activity as an example.

 

Of course it's specific to that organism only. The implication is that it will resemble others.

Here's another. YOu can use this one:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e3uk12p5nr7j0w2y/

 

I did my tissue oxidation studies in liver cells obtained from freshly harvested rats. Do you believe it will resembe the enzyme activity and hence fitness of the GO gene in the P. funiculosum mutants?

Can I imply that it will? Is it independent of the organism I used?

 

It might. You might. It might be. Do you think that no organisms share physiology? To what extent are they similar? Does every species have unique biochemistry? What features do they share? Come on.

This is biology. You want perfect correspondance and complete predictability? Physics and chem are just in the next building.

And theology is lurking in your closet.

 

So lets summarise. Estimation of glucose oxidation activity in a mutant strain of Penicillium funiculosum is an estimate of the fitness of the gene for glucose oxidation independent of the organism?

Thats your stance?

 

No, after controlling for background effects of the organism. Most people usually apply fitness to an individual, however: selective advantage then, to the gene.

 

Hmm - I correct myself. People do indeed use it for the gene itself. Not what I was taught.

 

Frankly it seems to me like you're going to the most fecund couples in a randomly picked village, altering their reproductive potential to maximal and then estimating their numerous kids as the trend for fitness of that gene. I'm not even certain its representative of the village let alone the gene in the whole universe.

Not that they even seem to be estimating the fitness of the gene in the paper you gave me.

 

More or less, but the usual trend is to have some reasonable physiology behind that.

Then you could argue that the environmental controls are inadequate. Have you evidence that this is so? Does the gene need to work the same the whole universe over, or just in parts thereof?

 

No clue, but I'm pretty certain that there are differences in glucose oxidation activity between liver and muscle cells within rats. I'm certainly not going to pretend I can predict GO activity for a mutant penicillium strain, let alone the fitness trends of its gene.