The answer to all scientific questions about the universe

Tony H2o · Apr 13, 2000

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
Boiling H2o,

Paul don't take my tone as me attacking you or reacting to you as a person, I am reacting to the claims of the book in question and its erroneous claim to be the answer to all questions, scientific, spiritual, physical etc when it manipulates actual truths and teachings found in the very Word of God, the Bible. It teaches half truths dressed up in a multitude of flowery words and by doing so it teaches a lie.

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
Tell me this,do you type all of that stuff or do you attach it from some file?

Half and half, I have a digital version of the Bible in various languages and with original Greek and Hebrew along with their equivalent English word definitions. I do use it to cut and past passages into what I am trying to show to people.

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
All that you have shown me is nothing but parables and euphanisms.Tell me one place where Jesus spoke of hell in the bible.Not where some disciple said he did.

Paul please look up some of the Gospel versus I quoted in your Bible if you have one, if not let me know and I will show you where to get the digital one I use. You will find Jesus speaks clearly HIMSELF about the reality of hell. Yes Jesus spoke in many parables so that He could communicate complex spiritual truths in a way that everyday people could understand with a little bit of thought and effort.

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
The devil you speak of was cast into the prison world on Jerusem and at this time is being judged or awaiting judgement.

2 Peter 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Satan

Adversary; accuser.
1. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word so rendered has the article "the adversary" #Job 1:6-12 2:1-7
2. In the New Testament it is used as interchangeable with Diabolos, or the devil, and is so used more than thirty times. He is also called
a. "the dragon, "" the old serpent" #Re 12:9 20:2
b. "the prince of this world" #Joh 12:31 14:30
c. "the prince of the power of the air" #Eph 2:2
d. "the god of this world" #2Co 4:4
e. "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" #Eph 2:2
3. The distinct personality of Satan and his activity among men are thus obviously recognized.
a. He tempted our Lord in the wilderness #Mt 4:1-11
b. He is "Beelzebub, the prince of the devils" #Mt 12:24
c. He is "the constant enemy of God, of Christ, of the divine kingdom, of the followers of Christ, and of all truth; full of falsehood and all malice, and exciting and seducing to evil in every possible way."
4. His power is very great in the world.
a. He is a "roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" #1Pe 5:8
b. Men are said to be "taken captive by him" #2Ti 2:26
c. Christians are warned against his "devices" #2Co 2:11 and called on to "resist" him #Jas 4:7
d. Christ redeems his people from "him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" #Heb 2:14
e. Satan has the "power of death, " not as lord, but simply as executioner.

Devil

(Gr. diabolos), a slanderer, the arch-enemy of man's spiritual interest #Job 1:6 Re 2:10 Zec 3:1 He is called also "the accuser of the brethen" #Re 12:10 In #Le 17:7 the word "devil" is the translation of the Hebrew _sair_, meaning a "goat" or "satyr" #Isa 13:21 34:14 alluding to the wood-daemons, the objects of idolatrous worship among the heathen. In #De 32:17 Ps 106:37 it is the translation of Hebrew _shed_, meaning lord, and idol, regarded by the Jews as a "demon, " as the word is rendered in the Revised Version. In the narratives of the Gospels regarding the "casting out of devils" a different Greek word (daimon) is used. In the time of our Lord there were frequent cases of demoniacal possession #Mt 12:25-30 Mr 5:1-20 #Lu 4:35 10:18 etc.

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
There is no Hell,there never was. There is however a place called earth which one could pretty much aproximate hell,as the judeo-christian version states it to be.Have you noticed that the American prison system is the archetype of the judeo-christian version of what hell out to be like.

Hell
Derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
1. Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask, " "demand; " hence insatiableness #Pr 30:15,16 It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times #Ge 37:35 42:38 44:29,31 1Sa 2:6 etc. The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule. In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell, " the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" #Pr 21:16 It is:
a. the abode of the wicked #Nu 16:33 Job 24:19 Ps 9:17 31:17 etc.;
b. of the good #Ps 16:10 30:3 49:15 86:13 etc. Sheol is described as:
a. deep #Job 11:8
b. dark #Job 10:21,22
c. with bars #Job 17:16
d. The dead "go down" to it #Nu 16:30,33 Eze 31:15,16,17
2. The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison #1Pe 3:19 with gates and bars and locks #Mt 16:18 Re 1:18 and it is downward #Mt 11:23 Lu 10:15 The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise #Lu 23:43 They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom #Lu 16:22
3. Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost #Mt 23:33 The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions #Mt 8:12 13:42 22:13 25:30 Lu 16:24 etc.

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
My God loves his children as a father loves his,God would never stop loving us no matter what sins we seem to commit.All he asks is faith in his love to enjoy all that he has planned for us,and to do his divine will.Christ Michael/Jesus could have left this world in what ever way he chose.He did not have to die for our sins.If he did as you say then all of those who had sinned are dead and long gone,have you ever thought about that.Thankyou for your input though.

Love
In #1Co 13:1ff. the apostle sets forth the excellency of love, as the word "charity" there is rendered in the Revised Version. Charity better captures the biblical idea of love, for charity is love in action for the glory of God not a mere warm mushy feeling as we use the word today.

Redemption - The ultimate act of Gods love

Romans 5:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Redemption
The purchase back of something that had been lost, by the payment of a ransom. The Greek word so rendered is _apolutrosis_, a word occurring nine times in Scripture, and always with the idea of a ransom or price paid, i.e., redemption by a lutron (see) #Mt 20:28 Mr 10:45 There are instances in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament of the use of _lutron_ in man's relation to man #Le 19:20 25:51 Ex 21:30 #Nu 35:31,32 Isa 45:13 Pr 6:35 and in the same sense of man's relation to God #Nu 3:49 18:15 There are many passages in the New Testament which represent Christ's sufferings under the idea of a ransom or price, and the result thereby secured is a purchase or redemption (comp.) #Ac 20:28 1Co 6:19,20 Ga 3:13 4:4,5 Eph 1:7 #Col 1:14 1Ti 2:5,6 Ti 2:14 Heb 9:12 1Pe 1:18,19 Re 5:9 The idea running through all these texts, however various their reference, is that of payment made for our redemption. The debt against us is not viewed as simply cancelled, but is fully paid. Christ's blood or life, which he
surrendered for them, is the "ransom" by which the deliverance of his people from the servitude of sin and from its penal consequences is secured. It is the plain doctrine of Scripture that "Christ saves us neither by the mere exercise of power, nor by his doctrine, nor by his example, nor by the moral influence which he exerted, nor by any subjective influence on his people, whether natural or mystical, but as a satisfaction to divine justice, as an expiation for sin, and as a ransom from the curse and authority of the law, thus reconciling us to God by making it consistent with his perfection to exercise mercy toward sinners"

Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
He did not have to die for our sins.If he did as you say then all of those who had sinned are dead and long gone,have you ever thought about that.

Yes, and God has already answered this. But instead of being critical of the Bible and God I went searching for the answer.

Ephesians 4:
8 For this reason he says, He went up on high, taking his prisoners with him, and gave freely to men.
9 (Now this, He went up, what is it but that he first went down into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who went down is the same who went up far over all the heavens so that he might make all things complete.)

Revelation 1:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He went down into the bowls of hell itself as the faultless Lamb of God, the final sacrifice and sin offering for mankind. He confronted the evil one and took back the keys of hell and death that we as fallen sinful humans had placed in the devils control at the fall. In doing so He destroyed the power that satan had over all who are dead and all who are to die, Jesus set the captives free. PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE and He can only do so if we accept His offer to do so in our eternal lives.

Hebrews 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 Corinthians 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Matthew 18:
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Romans 5:
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Corinthians 5:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 1:
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Galatians 3:
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Ephesians 1:
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Paul if you read the Bible you will be surprised by how much the urantia book has borrowed from it. So should this make the urantia book equal to it? By no means does it even come close. Its not that it does not show some truth but that it does not represent the full counsel or full truth of God's Word and by distortion it seeks to nullify the work of the one around whom the whole Word of God revolves - Jesus. The whole Word of God revolves around His plan of salvation and redemption, it revolves around the whole character and nature of the great I AM that I AM. All of this is revealed and fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. All the words of the patriarchs, the prophets, the laws of God, Gods nature and character are personified in Jesus and the work He came and achieved. Its a glorious plan that we so often fail to or choose not to see, sadly to our own detriment.

Again I can only hope and pray that my Lord, the Lord of all Glory, the Alpha and the Omega - Jesus will open your eyes to Him and shut your ears to the other.

Allcare

Tony H2o
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Crisp · Apr 13, 2000

Hi Boris,

Think again! Kuhn is old news. Suggested reading: Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl R. Popper, here's a link to the amazon.com page for it.
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Actually, on a chronological scale, Kuhn succeeds Popper, and so do most of his ideas. The falsification of science (as Popper first described it in... i think 1934) is no longer possible in Kuhn's vision of scientific revolution, simply because, according to Kuhn, there's no common frame of reference (paradigm) to talk in. There's a 30-year difference between the two visions so I'd say that Popper is the old news
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.

Easy: a complete theory of everything is the final goal. Achievability is a matter of assymptotic approximation (see the book above for details.)
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I totally agree with the ultimate and complete theory of everything, it's obvious that this is what science is aiming at. The problem I have here is that this goal cannot be achieved. I am glad you dropped the word "approximation" here (even though it's in a difference context) since that's exactly what will destroy our theory of everything. For everything we see in the world and universe, we create a mathematical model that describes it up to an accuracy that we choose. But you inevitably introduce errors in this model (eg. harmonic approximation in classical mechanics, statistical approximations in statistical mechanics, etc) so one day or another, whether it is tomorrow in in 300 years, we will have the ability to see past these approximations (because the detecting equipment has gone supersensitive) and then we will have to adjust the theory once again (ironically, this looks a lot like Popper's falsification of theories
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). Every theory that makes approximations is doomed to fail one day.

Ofcourse, for now we're stuck with only a couple of Cray's to do the heavy math so we are obliged to do apprxoimations; otherwise we couldn't even solve a simple problem like a mass on a spring (anharmonic effects etc).

PS: Popper's self-proclaimed destruction of inductivism doesn't stand, and I can have him for lunch on that issue any day; however, his analysis of falsificationism is pretty good, which is what's relevant here.
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I agree that falsificationism is one of the most common ways to advance in science, but I think that Popper is a bit naive. Kuhn puts it more realistically, saying that there are many other ways in which science can evolve (falsificationism being one of them).

Personally I think of scientific revolution as a "Popper-Kuhn" mix, in which falsificationism leads to paradigm shifts, which is more the Kuhn vision then. (see <A HREF="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2ULLCA34LT&mscssid=QDTTN3Q521S92LPW001PQUW780MK23K6&sourceid=00266206460639244575&bfdate=04%2D13%2D2000+07%3A 41%3A27&srefer=&isbn=0226458083"> here </A> for the Amazon link to Kuhn's book
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).

Bye!

Crisp

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Crisp · Apr 13, 2000

Hi TonyH20,

Again I can only hope and pray that my Lord, the Lord of all Glory, the Alpha and the Omega - Jesus will open your eyes to Him and shut your ears to the other.
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*sigh*.

The next we're going to hear is that christianity promotes brotherhood and is open for all other kinds of religion ? Or have your ears been shut too violently by Jesus ?

(Sidenote: I do not support Paul and his Urantia book in this matter, but I have to admit that he has proven himself to be more open minded than yourself. I think you should really listen to him and perhaps even get some more insight in your own religious book, the bible, for I cannot believe that you completely can comprehend a philosphical book like that in one lifetime).

(Sidenote to sidenote: I do not believe in reincarnation
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... So don't start interpretting the "one lifetime" thingy in some wierd way
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).

Bye!

Crisp

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Tony H2o · Apr 14, 2000

Originally posted by Crisp:
Hi TonyH20,

*sigh*.

The next we're going to hear is that christianity promotes brotherhood and is open for all other kinds of religion ? Or have your ears been shut too violently by Jesus ?

Hi Crisp,

Yes I understand what you mean and the stance I have taken on this issue may reflect a single mindedness. You are right it does! And it was meant to!

So I guess that puts me in the narrow minded, bigoted arena again....or does it?

Let me clarify what we are talking about here. We are discussing fundamental and doctrinal truths on which the very faith of Christianity is based. They are:

1. The very physical and actual resurrection of Jesus Christ.

2. The main authority on this subject being the Bible and the truth of it.

If this means that I come across as being unaccepting of "alternative" (which in actuality is nothing new) views to support the truth of my faith then so be it. If I having seen what I have seen and knowing what I know were then to preach or accept or teach another way I would be lying to all who read this when I know the actuality and reality of the truth. I would be found in error, and if this comes across as intolerance its because of my staunch belief that there is only one mediator between God and man, that person being Jesus Christ. There I go being narrow minded again
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, but seriously if I was to say that you could make it on your own or another way, if I were to ignore the truth then I will have failed in my very own faith. I know more than you probably realise just how dividing and intolerant my stance can be having been physically assaulted because of it. But let me assure you also that I am a very accepting and understanding person, I am not as intolerant as my posts may have you think, I will defend the truth but at the same time I will attempt to understand where the other party is coming from, I may not agree with it, and I probably will not accept there views, but I will try to understand. The problem I have with the Urantia book is one from a faith perspective in that it sets itself up as the authority on the life of Christ and His purpose for coming to planet Earth. It takes a very one sided approach that I have seen a million times over in other texts including Hindu, Buddist, many of the ism's etc. By doing so it stands against the real truth of the Bible and as such I must take issue.

Crisp, true faith and understanding of what was and is achieved at the cross does not allow for religious tolerance, I'm sorry if you think that's harsh. But when you know the truth and when you have stood face to face with deception then you can see very, very clearly. If you want to understand what I'm talking about more or understand where I'm coming from and why I'm as determined as I am in my faith then please read Overview and Dreams and Visions in the religious discussion. I know what I know and I know who I am in the great I AM. If this means that my ears are violently shut due to this then that will remain the case, but please believe me if you knew Him like I know Him..... well I can live in hope that you could see why I do what I do. I as a person do not like seeing what I say upset people, I don't like the idea of Paul thinking that I'm a narrow minded religo nut case who believes in paranormal tricks of the evil one. Quote Paul: "People like you probably believe that stigmata is the work of God." It would be good if he also read what I really believe, but I think that may challenge his beliefs.

As far as open mindedness goes then yes Paul is more open minded, and being open minded does not in anyway convince me of the depth of a persons convictions in what they proclaim as truth. As I have said above the truth is something that does not sway or waver in its conviction and acceptance or tolerance of alternative ideas does not show conviction. Also while I'm thinking of it don't mistake conviction with lack of compassion and empathy, which is an entirely different topic.

Oh I guess you or someone will bring up that its exactly this kind of intolerance that caused all the religious wars etc, etc. Maybe intolerance did cause wars, I think history shows this to be the case but conviction in ones beliefs is not to be used as an excuse for violence. I stand with Jesus on this when He told Peter to put the sword away when His accusers came to seize Him. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword, I can not force my convictions on any person they have the free will to either accept or reject the message and the strength of my stance regarding it. Many mistakes have been made in the name of religion, many innocent lives destroyed that could have otherwise been saved through compassion and understanding while maintaining the truth of ones own convictions.

Regarding insight into my own religious book the Bible, yes I agree with you that it will take more than this life time to fully understand and comprehend all that the Lord has done. Even so this should not preclude me or anyone from defending that which we have had revealed to us and do understand. And no I didn't take the lifetime thingy in some weird way
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Allcare

Tony H2o
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paul defourneaux · Apr 14, 2000

Well,well,well,
I don't know who to adresse this to.I cetainly did not mean start this type of discourse between people.I just feel that there are some people out there who think there is a more indepth explaination of who we are and where we came from,other than the bible.And to state that this book[urantia]is nonsense goes in both directions.The bible is like a fairy tale explaination my parents used to tell me when I would ask where babies come from.In turn I would ask who told the stork dad screwed mom?To those who feel this way the Urantia book will help you,to those who don't all I can say is I tried.
Machiaventa Speaks
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Tony H2o · Apr 14, 2000

Hi Paul,

As this is informally addressed I will informally respond.

Its nice to see you have a heart that wishes to offer hope to people that are searching for answers, even though I may not agree with your answer. And at the risk of sounding like Lori
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"the bible explains all", you've just got to look for it in there. Getting to know the God of the Bible takes some effort, He doesn't want spoilt rotten children who demand to be spoon fed. In so doing it builds character, the Fathers character and determination.

Don't stress about the way this discussion has headed, you'll find that it's common place around here for it to take that path. If you post up here you'll need to be ready to substantiate what you say and believe, and sometimes things get hot.

Anyway I hope you could see the message I was trying to get across in my posts. I try not to take a personal attack approach but inevitably sometimes do. If I have offended you I am sorry, if the truth of what I believe has spoken to you then I do not apologise for that.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Plato · Apr 14, 2000

Paul,
(I like the way your name refers to the biblical one who promoted the bible all over the antique world
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)
I hope you know you are just exchanging one book of revelation with an other. In this respect I don't really follow Crisp's opinion that you are more open minded then Tony.

Tony,

true faith and understanding of what was and is achieved at the cross does not allow for religious tolerance, I'm sorry if you think that's harsh. But when you know the truth and when you have stood face to face with deception then you can see very, very clearly.
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This stand is the main reason why there is such a thing as hate and war. The strange thing is that everybody is horrified by violence and every religion preaches peace and understanding at one point or an other but at the same time is blind for its own intolerance against other views. It is a terrible conclusion to come to because faith touches the very basics of our own thinking but we should get rid of it or at the very least question it !
This is not a plead for atheism (although I do sympathise that view) but for a critical evaluation of intolerance.

------------------
"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

Crisp · Apr 15, 2000

Hi Plato,

I hope you know you are just exchanging one book of revelation with an other. In this respect I don't really follow Crisp's opinion that you are more open minded then Tony.
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I couldn't have put it any better. However Plato, both you and I (and many others) are also following our own book(s) of revelation (called "Physics"), that do no hold the complete truth alltogether. I am glad Paul acknowledged that even the book of Urantia he praises so much, doesn't hold the truth.

As far as I see it, there's no right or wrong in this discussion. The point we are debating about is how acurately our books of revelation describe the truth/reality. (Hrm, this last phrase starts to worry me since my own words are starting to sound Urantian.... Think I'll panic
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). Personally I'll ofcourse say that all the books on my (and your) bookshelf do that to a very good accuracy, but I am pretty sure that both Paul and Tony will disagree. Why will they disagree ? Probably because their belief in their versions of the truth is as large (or larger) than our belief in the mathematics that underly all physics. Does this mean the maths are right ? I dunno, but I think they're doing a d*mn good job at it (forgive me my swearing Tony).

Tony,

Getting to know the God of the Bible takes some effort, He doesn't want spoilt rotten children who demand to be spoon fed.
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I hope you are aware of the irony of this statement. On one side you try to convince us all to see the light and become god's children (as he surely wants), but on the otherside you tell us that he rejects all people that are too lazy to read between the lines. Doesn't this somewhat contradict the "you are all welcome in heaven" statement ? Or is this a new form of the "you have to work to get in heaven" ? If I remember history correctly, about 400 to 500 years ago people were forced to work hard to survive, giving as much as they could as donations to the church just to get in heaven. Is it because this no longer applies nowadays that we now actually have to read the bible ? (I'm afraid you'll also have to read between these lines to get what I mean
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).

Without going too philosophic here, I would furthermore like to add that we should praise the lord for our laziness! (sarcasm intended). Isn't it because of laziness that the great inventions of our time have been created ? Why did we invent the wheel ? Probably not because it's so much fun to see it turning, but to take four of those, hammer a board to it and put stuff on it to push it around (chariot). Why did we invent the bicycle ? Because we love walking all the way to the grocery store ?

I hope you'll see that I can go on forever with this. Laziness is, next to the more dominant scientific curiosity, one of the main reasons we have science; so please don't ask us to work, that would be against the very nature of science itself
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.

Bye!

Crisp

paul defourneaux · Apr 15, 2000

Dear,Crispy
You know we aren't as far apart as you think .The fingerprints of God are everywhere.Mathematics and physics are just one of the many tools to show us where He left them and explain how He left them.Have you ever read fingerprints of God?In one chapter the explain that if you take the cracks that form in ice naturally.How ever random the seem,when there location and frequency is entered in to a computer digitaly.The give the blue print for a tree or many other living things.I am not sure if I explained this quite accuratly,what I am trying to say is that there is nothing random in the universe at all.Any book,be it physics or the bible,or even the urantia book has some good to be gleaned from it.God put nothing here at our disposal to be wasted,He gave us the ability to see the many clues to his existance.We all must come to him in our own way,be it science(which I love)or phylosophy,or religion,He just wants you to use what works for you and does no harm to any one or thing.Thinking ill of someone or something is just as bad as doing ill to them.So always keep and open mind and one day you will see we where on the same road after all.As for h2o,we both know that water has many sates of being,sometimes it is high humidity and sometimes it just rains no matter what.

Paul/Machiaventa Speaks
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h2o
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[This message has been edited by paul defourneaux (edited April 15, 2000).]

Crisp · Apr 15, 2000

Hi Paul,

You know we aren't as far apart as you think.
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Indeed, but this is also the point where our roads split!
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The fingerprints of God are everywhere. Mathematics and physics are just one of the many tools to show us where He left them and explain how He left them. God put nothing here at our disposal to be wasted, He gave us the ability to see the many clues to his existance.
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Aha, but now you're assuming that I am actually looking for (a) god through science. I am looking for the truth (what makes things happen, how does nature work?), but you might very well argue that I am denying that this truth is god (then he surely hides in a very good way). On the other hand, science seems to more and more disprove the existance of a higher being, by being more and more able to explain the fine mechanism nature works in.

I am aware that this is a very dangerious opinion I am presenting here (since this will likely reopen the debate of science vs. religion one more time), but I think this is one of the major points we have different opinions about. When you show me god, you will say "this is the big guy, accept his existance" and my first reaction will be "prove that its him". Even when you've done so I will still try to explain how he works as yet another part of nature we're exploring.

Don't get me wrong, I am not attacking your belief in god; I am very happy it works out for you. But I am afraid you're dealing with a rebel here who simply cannot stop at the point where you say "go no further"
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.

Bye!

Crisp

paul defourneaux · Apr 15, 2000

Dear Crisp,
At one time not to long ago I thought as you did.No ones explaination could supercede what science had taught me.Having a M.S. in chemistry made it very hard to except any explaination other than scientific ones.Yet when I read this book(urantia)and found that it integrated science,phylosophy,and spirituality in one,all things came toghether.I have found that science is more of a plausible explaination of how God made this universe and all things in it.For many years I was an agnostic,believing that all religions used there knowledge to control people.For Knowledge is power,and the control of knowledge is absolute power.When science began to explain Gods working nature to the masses religion lost much of it's control.It created a group of people who knew more than the religionists who had been in control.Where would we be now if the catholics and there buddies had not kept us in the dark ages for half a millenia?Please do not ever stop searching for your personal truth,for in the end it will bring to the right conclusion,for all of us must come to God in our own way.Remember there are no atheist on the battlefield.I enjoy reading your responses and hearing different points of view.The Urantia book was published 100 yrs. ahead of it time in order to promogulate teachers and other people to dissemminate it's teachings.By the year 2055,if we are still alive in this dimension we will see a great movement spawned by this book and the foundation.I sincerly hope that you are around to see it,for it will be the beginning of this world's entry into the world of light and life.Ghandi said"if we are luky enough to live so long most of our sins will fade into non-existence.

Paul/Machiaventa Speaks
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FyreStar · Apr 15, 2000

Paul -

Do you realize that you sound exactly like those who believe the bible to be the answer to everything? Giving up christianity (or any other religion) for this book is simply replacing one subjective dream with another.

Also, your athiest/battlefield comment demonstrates that you don't really know what an athiest is. True athiests do not believe in gods, so no matter what situation they are in, they can't simply jump tracks and start believing. The weak-willed people you are describing are imposters, who say they don't believe but secretly, 'deep down', actually believe in some sort of deity. The belief needs to exist for one to be able to embrace it.

FyreStar

dumb college kid · Apr 16, 2000

fyrestar, what do you mean "jump tracks and start believeing"? Do you mean believeing in something based on faith? Of course you do! Whatever your stance on anything is, you need to take a whole hell of a lot on faith! If a leading expert of astronomy tells you that the universe is expanding, you have faith that his of her measurements are coorect, and that he or she is not outright lying to you. It all boils down to that anyway. Now faith is not in any way a bad thing, it is extremely necessary in life. However, many people take things solely on blind faith, apart from any evidence or body of substantiated knowledge. This is where I part ways with Paul and his Urantia philosophies. They are not only unsubstantiated, but also very unrealistic. How can anyone make a claim like "our current estimations at the size (which is a determiner of the age) of the universe are off by 17,000,000%"? This is astounding! You must agree that without proper evidence on which to base such a claim, no one in their right mind can take you seriously without defying the principles of reason. That's no good. I have started reading the Urania book, and I find the thing to be very dull and filled with sci-fi mumbo-jumbo that can in no way be proven. So I must wonder, where is it that the authpr received his information regarding the wild claims he makes regarding the universe? Certainly not from any existing body of evidence. This faith is blind. Blind faith is unnacceptable to me. I veiw faith as having two sub-catagories. The first is blind faith, which is based off of no evidence, or is contrary to existing evidence. Urantia is this, both lacking in any proof and contrary to existing evidence. The second kind of faith is a mere extension of what is known to be true. We as people can never know everything, so we will always have to make faith-based assumptoins about certain things. As long as we know something about what we are placing our faith in, and our faith meshes with known truth, it is not blind, but very reasonable. Urantia is not this. Its claims do not go hand in hand with any body of truth. Oops! I must reject it therefore on principles of mere reason, something which is in reach of anyone so long as they are mature enough to be objective.

micah

paul defourneaux · Apr 16, 2000

Dear D.C.K.

I totally respect your scepticism!I do not ask you to take this book on blind faith alone.At www.urantia.org you will find a link on the history of the book and where it actually came from.And you are right there are some things that are hard to swallow.The book was not written by people as we know it,it was dictated to people here,yet the authors are what you would call extraterrestrials.I first doubted this book and it's writings yet as time passed the truth manifested itself to me in ways I can't readily explain.The fact that I have gotten you to read it at all is a success to me.Days ,months,or even years from now you will say"damn I'm glad i found that book"because in time it will all be as clear to you as it is to me.Do me a favor keep reading it if only to find reasons for disproving or disallowing it.And keep telling that idiot Loone what he needs to hear.

Paul?machiaventa Speaks
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[This message has been edited by paul defourneaux (edited April 16, 2000).]

dumb college kid · Apr 16, 2000

thanks for not putting up a huge fight. And yes, I will keep telling Loone to behave! I wish he didn't give faith such a bad rapport with people who think that faith has no place among itellectualism.

micah

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