The christian Bible...

"she asses".

i've been thinking alot about the tower of babel lately in the context of this world and of technology, politics, medicine, our food supply, living conditions, and all of it corrupt. to find a way to heaven without god...to circumvent, to replace him. it's all for nothing. it will come crashing down, it's inevitable. look at our path. look at the so-called progress in the world today. we're spinning out of control. exponential advancement towards our own anihalation and nobody cares because there is no unity, no regard for everyone but only a regard for competition and the individual. me, me, me, on a personal level and on a political level, an industrial level. all of the miracles destroyed by the wrong intentions.

 

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1 And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south.


2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.


3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;


4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had make there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.


5 And Lot also, which went with Abram, had flocks, and herds, and tents.


6 And the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together: for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell together.


7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.


8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.


9 Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.


10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.


11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.


12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.


13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.


14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:


15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.


16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.


17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.


18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD

Genesis-CH. 13

 

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Ok. Where were they? Where did they go from Egypt? Starts to sound like Ethiopia or Somalia, by directions given. Weird.

 

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M*W: Good morning, Hamster. I have a map of Western Asia at the time of Abraham. Abraham was born in the town of Haran which lies on the northernmost part of the Euphrates River (in what that area was Assyria or more correctly, Mitanni (Naharin), a designation most of us are not familiar with. Hebron is to the west of the Euphrates River and southward toward the Egyptian Nile Delta. Abraham would have traveled westward and then southward along the Dead Sea route, passing the towns of Damascus and Jerusalem, before arriving at Hebron which in in Canaan.

Many people believe that Canaan is far, far away from Egypt, but it is Egypt's neighbor to the east.

Take Moses and the alleged Exodus, for example, if the Exodus had actually taken place, the exitors would have only needed to wander about 30 miles to the east to enter the Promised Land. Not very far even in those days.

Hebron is a parallel city to Gaza. Gaza is on the Mediterranean Sea and Hebron is a handful of miles inland.

To answer your question about where Hebron is compared to where Abraham traveled from to Canaan and to Egypt, Osman states the following:

"... according to the Bible,(Abraham lived in the city of) Ur (modern Tell Muqayyar) (in the area of the Chaldees), an important city 200 miles to the southeast of modern Baghdad, the capital of Iraq. The Book of Genesis gives no explanation of the reasons that prompted Terah (Abraham's father) to set out on the great trade route that followed the valley of the Euphrates northwest through Babylon, sweeping west through Canaan to link with the ports of the eastern Mediterranean."

"It is more than 700 miles from Ur to Canaan, which at that time occupied much the same area as modern Israel, the West Bank and Gaza."

Reference:

Osman, Ahmed.: Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion, Bear & Company, Rochester, Vermont, 2005.

 

MW-Yep. That's pretty traditional. He went south from Egypt, though. Is Hebron south of Egypt? I find it confusing, due to lack of clarity. Quibbling about directions that were made multiple millenia ago is a bit silly, I suppose, unless one has a stake in the literality of the modern Bible, which I don't, personally.

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An aside, you are a giant fan of Mr. Osman, aren't you? Is he the last word on theology for some reason? Have you considered this source with cynicism, as well?

 

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M*W: If Abraham had gone south in Egypt, he would have ended up in what they call "upper" Egypt. This is where the confusion comes in. The Nile Delta is referred to as "lower" Egypt, even though it is the northernmost part of Egypt. "Upper" Egypt would be southward toward the Sudan. I don't know why it is labeled this way, however.

Abraham's travel itinerary as I understand it is:

He was born in Haran (in Iraq). He was told to leave his homeland and move southeastward to the Ur of the Chaldees (in Iraq). He traveled to the pharaoh's palace in Egypt by going westward towar the area of Damascus then turning southward toward Egypt. It is believed that Abraham did not have to travel beyond the city of Zarw, by the Nile Delta in Lower Egypt (again, this would more logically appear to be Upper Egypt, but it's not). His journey would have taken him southward along the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea, and he didn't have to travel more than a few miles after he entered Egypt.

I am an avid reader of Ahmed Osman. Since I have all of his books, I tend to cite him. He was born in Cairo in 1934, and is the author of Stranger in the Valley of Kings, The House of the Messiah, Moses and Akhenaten, Out of Egypt, Jesus and the House of the Pharaohs, The Secret Lineage of the Patriarch Joseph, and The Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt. He lived in England, but I think he is recently deceased.

There are other scholars that I regularly cite:

Breasted, James H.: A History of Egypt, NY, 1924.

Breasted, James H., ed., Ancient Records of Egypt, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1906.

Bright, John.: A History of Israel, London, 1982.

Ellis, Ralph.: Jesus: Last of the Pharaohs--The Truth Behind the Mask Revealed, Edfu Books, TJ International, Padstow, UK, 1999.

Gardiner, Alan H.: Egypt of the Pharaohs, Clarendon Press, Oxford, UK, 1961.

Jackson, John G.: Christianity Before Christ, American Atheist Press, Austin, TX, 2002.

Lang, J. Stephen.: What the Bible Didn't Say: Popular Myths and Misconceptions About the Good Book, Fall River Press, NY, 2003.

Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ: Separating Fact From Fiction, The Book Tree, Escondido, CA, 2000.

Maxwell, Jordan; Tice, Paul and Snow, Alan.: That Old-Time Religion: The Story of Religious Foundations, The Book Tree, Escondido, CA, 2000.

Osman, Ahmed.: Jesus in the House of the Pharaohs: The Essene Revelations on the Historical Jesus, Bear & Company, Rochester, VT, 2004.

Osman, Ahmed.: Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion, Bear & Company, Rochester, VT, 2005.

Osman, Ahmed.: Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, Bear & Company, Rochester, VT, 2002.

Osman, Ahmed.: Stranger in the Valley of Kings, Souvenir Press, London, 1987.

Panati, Charles.: Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The Stories Behind the Rites and Rituals of the World's Religions, The Penguin Group, NY, 1996.

Petrie, W.M. Flinders.: Researches in Sinai, John Murray, London, 1906.

Pritchard, James B., ed., The Times Atlas of the Bible, London: Times Books, 1987.

Wagner, N.E.: Abraham and David. Toronto, 1972.

Weigall, Arthur.: The Life and Times of Akhnaton--Pharaoh of Egypt, Cooper Square Press, Ny, 2000.

Yahuda, A.S.: The Language of the Pentateuch in its Relation to Egyptian. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1933.

 

MW-Quite a library you have there. You didn't need to post all that, though, as I was trying to poke you into looking at your research with a bit of skepticism, that's all.

Just a curious aside-Why was the pharoah so close to the border, then? I'd think that he went at least as far as Giza, but this was around four thousand years ago. Can the location of the Pharoah's itinerary be known, especially involving foreign commoners?

 

Anyway. Chapter 14 coming up.

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I have to say, that was exhausting!