SkyeBlue- I'm inclined to think that the mindset idea is the most probable. I've thought about that concept myself. Heaven and Hell would seem to be more like an impression left behind from the mind of the person. How many happy, cheery ghosts have people encountered? MY TWO CENTS--JMitch
Actually, SkyeBlue, it is the reason why "the" Messiah (Jesus Christ) came and gave the word of God to man to be spread throughout the world... So that none of us would be lost, so that all of us would have the opportunity to be saved. As I'm sure you know, no matter what God does or does not do, there will be many who will still turn their backs on God and go another way. Although we might all have the opportunity to be saved, many of us will choose not to for various reasons. What I continue to hear from you is that you want God to do the things that have already been done. I am also hearing that you think you know me (based on the asides). I can tell you that your perception of me (rolling eyes, etc...) is way off base. (Not that it matters, just thought you'd like to "know"). I am genuinely interested in your questions which contribute to your disbelief. Yes, Hell is a final stop. However, it is an eternal state, not a temporary one. There is no time off for good behavior once you are there. The different mindset concept is an interesting one. As far as atheism is concerned though, I have heard that it has been proven on the battlefield that there is no such thing as a true atheist. When faced with death, it is reported by those who have been there that even atheists cry out for God to help them. I know we can't believe everything we hear, but I have heard this from a number of different sources. I also know a woman who was the staunchest atheist I have ever met. She suffered with cancer for many years. She ended up living five years beyond the six months that the doctors had expected her to live. Now, I have experience with a number of people who suffered and died with cancer. However, everyone who knew this woman (especially the doctors) could not believe that she was still able to live, given her severely decrepit condition. She was like a stick walking around with a huge, oozing cancerous tumor popping out of her abdomen which had split open from the pressure of the tumor long before she expired. She was only sixty pounds and such bad vital signs had never seen in a human being who was still able to walk and talk. After she finally died, we found out from her family that the reason why she hung on so long was that she was afraid to die - afraid of the finality - due to her strong atheistic beliefs, she had no concept of any destiny beyond her physical death and this had scared her into living and into seriously seeking alternatives to her beliefs. Ultimately, she found God and was comforted in her death. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 27, 1999).]
Err, excuse me for butting in, but what about all of the poor bastards going to hell BEFORE the coming of the messiah? [This message has been edited by JMitch (edited October 27, 1999).]
Truestory, Another question I have is, saved for what purpose? What happens next? Do we get any clues about that? Will we have any choices about what we get to do for all of eternity? Why do I keep thinking of the story of Pinocchio and the boys who wanted to play hooky? They were promised a life free from what they thought they hated most of all - school. They got that, all right - but found out there was something they hated more than school after all. Do you remember the story?
Searcher, Salvation begins in the present life and continues into everlasting life. Yes, we do have some clues about what happens next. God came in the flesh through Jesus Christ to inform us that God wants us to be saved so that we can share with God for all eternity in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. It is the ultimate gift from God which consists of living in complete communion with God... some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit which we can look forward to are infinite regeneration, wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, charity, joy and peace... the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit is love. Those of us who have heard the word already know that we have a choice about what we get to do for all eternity by virtue of God's gift of free will. We can either choose to spend eternity with God or without God (with Satan). You probably know better than I why you keep thinking of the story of Pinocchio??? I don't remember much of it. (I was never a big fan of fiction). What I do remember about that fairy tale was that each time Pinocchio lied, his nose grew. Even though I was young, I knew this was not a true story and I got kinda turned-off. It just did not interest me, I guess. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 27, 1999).]
truestory - As far as atheists/agnostics recanting their beliefs when faced with death.. try to keep in mind that not all of us are weak-minded, weak-principled hypocrites. If you would like an example, I give you Carl Sagan. If you want details, read the end of his book "Billions and Billions". I believe that 1+1=2. If I am about to die, you won't hear me say 1+1=3. Why? Because it is wrong, and even if it will give me false hope, I'll still know that it is wrong. SkyeBlue - Interesting question. Personally, I tend to think that all of our conciousnesses will dissipate, despite what we believe. We are simply biological life, after all. I am interested though, in what would become of agnostics, in such a situation? An eternal final jeopardy? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FyreStar
FyreStar - Good question, about the agnostics. I suppose they could end up as ghosts, always wandering looking for the answers? Just a thought. I have to agree with you, though, I too tend to believe that our conciousness (which is really just a series of electrical impulses) will just dissipate upon death. I wish I could believe in something else, perhaps that's why I pester and push at people like truestory - I'm looking for a 'truth' that can fit into my crazy little ol' mind. truestory - hey sweets, don't be mad at me! I'm not trying to say I know you with my little asides. I'm just trying to add a little levity to what's turning into quite a debate! Of course I don't know you, just as you don't know me. I totally respect your point of view - as I said before, I believe each person has a right to their own set of beliefs - I might be a pest, but I'm a respecful pest! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Okay, my rebuttal: About your comment regarding Pinnochio - you knew the story wasn't true because his nose grew each time he lied. But you do believe in people parting seas and restoring sight to the blind in an instant? What about Moses - wasn't he supposed to be hundreds and hundreds of years old? To me, the story of Pinnochio and the story (stories) of the Bible seem to be about equal (from a true or not true standpoint) - metaphorical stories designed to get a moral point accross. I have to say I don't believe in miracles - at least not the religious definition of miracles. I do believe life is a miracle, but I also believe shooting a basket behind your head with your eyes closed is some kind of miracle, too. I guess that means my definition of miracle is something that happens against all odds. But, I don't think they're generated, they just happen, or they don't. Okay, truestory, I also have to say that you're hearing me wrong. I'm not saying that I want God to do anything. Yes, theoretically, if I were to become a God I WOULD do things differently. But since I don't believe that I ever will become a god, just as I don't believe there is a god at all, I can't say that I want him to do anything. Don't forget - I don't believe in God! I'm poking at YOU - I want to know what you think - I want to know your version of the WHY behind God's actions. You seem to have very solid, definite beliefs and views on the subject, and I'm just trying to push you into thinking past what you already "know" - I want to make you think, and try to see things from my view. My questions aren't designed to harrass you, really! I suppose it looks that way. And, of course, you keep trying to get me to see things from your point of view - which is fair! I guess I'm just not the type to take anything on faith. If you tell me something is hot, I'm going to look for heat waves. If I don't see the heat waves, I'll try to touch it. If I am blocked from touching it, I'm going to quiz you endlessly on how you KNOW that thing is hot. It doesn't mean I'm angry at the heat, or I want the heat to manifest itself in another way, I would just wonder how YOU knew it was hot, without the data *I* would need to verify that fact. See what I mean? JMitch - good question! truestory - do you have any thoughts about what happened to people that died prior to Jesus and his message?
Hey, does this mean that SkyeBlue and Searcher are one in the same? SkyeBlue/Searcher, I have no problem thinking or seeing things from your point of view... It is a fact that I saw things from your view for many, many years... I had many of the same questions you currently have... The cumulative effect of a number of life-altering experiences (many of which I have posted in previous threads over the months) caused me to open my heart completely and ask Jesus Christ to come into my life. I have since found answers which enable me to see things from the perspective of Jesus Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit.
JMitch, Throughout the history of mankind, God has expressed the desire to share eternity with the souls of mankind. There have been a number of covenants between God and man throughout the years. The most recent (and the last) is the covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ. Prior to Jesus Christ, those who knew of God's previous covenants and followed the way to God at the time, will be saved. My understanding though, is that the number of souls saved prior to Jesus Christ will be few and far between. God came to us in the flesh of Jesus Christ because mankind was so depraved and wicked that the majority were unworthy of eternal salvation. God's eternal kingdom has no end and God wants to share this with as many worthy souls as possible. God went through great lengths to prepare mankind for the coming of Jesus Christ, so that we would recognize the savior, so that we would hear God's words perfected in the flesh, so that we would understand God's plan for the resurrection of the faithful and the life of the world to come and so that we would know the specific way to eternal salvation. As far as I am concerned, we are much more fortunate than those poor people who went before the coming of Jesus Christ. Thank you God!
truestory, Nope, I am not Searcher. Though thru reading his (her?) comments, I think we are perhaps both 'searchers'. Why do you think God waited for so many thousands of years before sending Jesus? I never really thought about that one before.
SkyeBlue, Hmmm... SkyeBlue was posting many questions throughout this thread... Searcher jumps in and says, "Another question I have..." and posts the Pinocchio episode (I look back and don't see any other questions from Searcher in this thread)... I respond to Searcher's post about Pinocchio and SkyeBlue rebutts my response about Pinocchio... I thought you were likely one in the same... Yes, I agree that you are probably both "searchers."
Heh,heh, you're right truestory, Searcher and I have been stealing eachother's discussions. But, we are seperate people. However, I must say the Pinocchio analogy is an interesting one! I never really liked that story though, too preachy. You know how much I like to be preached to! ;-) So, truestory - you say you used to think just like me. What made you choose Christianity as your faith? If you don't mind me asking... Did you do a lot of research and choose the one that seemed to fit, or did something specific happen that just kind of revealed this 'truth' to you. (Sorry, but I still just HAVE to put quotes around truth in this context. Nothing personal!) I did see your post somewhere else in these forums about the missing kid and the voice out of nowhere, and I think there was another one from you with a car accident your kid was almost in. I think that's really a trip, but what made you choose Christianity in particular? Were those two incidences what made you think there was a God in the first place?
Truestory, I can see why you might have been confused about whether or not SkyeBlue and I were one and the same, but I assure you that we are indeed two different people. The reason you hadn't seen any other posts from me is because I normally only post in the evening after work (unless I'm home sick from work), or on the weekends, or once in a great while very early in the morning before I leave for work. Not only that, but things are a bit hectic around here right now, so I don't have as much time for posting (not to mention that since I downloaded AOL 5.0, I keep getting knocked offline just when I'm about ready to post a nice long message, like what just happened a couple of minutes ago - grrrr!!!). Like SkyeBlue, I am interested in finding out what makes people believe the way they do. I'm particularly interested in you because of some of your experiences which you've been kind enough to share with us. If I'm not mistaken, you were abducted by aliens when you were a child. I wonder then, why you don't see Jesus as being an alien? I've seen enough evidence in the Bible that he was/is an alien (meaning, he came from another world, as he clearly stated in John 8:23). In fact, I believe that anyone who claimed to be God, or a son of God, and yet manifested as a man, was actually an alien (at least those who were seen flying about the heavens in their chariots of fire, and such). Why do you believe differently - or do you?
truestory - you were abducted by an alien? Wow! You have had an eventful life! I have to say I will believe in aliens before I will believe in an eternal, all-present diety. Can you direct me to your alien story - if it's still up on these boards? I'd be interested in reading that.
I must say I'm <u>really</u> beginning to doubt truestory's monicker. Poltergeists, precognition, remote viewing, and an NDE are already on the list. Now, we seem to be adding abduction, too. What a distinguished psychic career! (Say, truestory, have you ever considered checking in with a psychiatrist?) ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
SkyeBlue, She made mention of it in this thread (see below for address), but I'm sure I saw a more detailed story of her abduction when she was a 6 year old child. Sorry I couldn't find it - Truestory, would you care to tell us about it again? http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000088-2.html
Well, well... Welcome back Boris... I seem to remember that you had read and commented on my abduction post a couple of months ago, when I first started posting... I believe you even mentioned it previously in one of your posts in which you ridiculed the fact that I have had a number of personal experiences which you do not understand... I could be wrong but, this really is not news to you, is it?
SkyeBlue, Here is my post from September 14, 1999: Given my experience, this site interests me. It might even be a site where others might find my exprerience interesting! September, 1959 (approximately 5:00 PM): I was taken by "little men," out of my bed in the Bronx, through an open fifth-story window which was next to the top bunk in which I was napping. When I arrived in the "craft," I saw a boy from my neighborhood who looked very scared. The inside of the room which I was in was cylindrical in shape and the walls were made of what appeared to be dull, metal-colored, cushiony cells (allowing for the flexibility needed to form the rounded walls). Yes, I found myself on an examining table. I remember being terrified and screaming and crying. Some of the "little men" (standing in front of the table) in the examining room, who were not as little as the ones who took me from my bed, were standing back because I was thrashing about, trying to get free. A couple of the larger "little men" were holding me down from behind. One also had a hold of my right arm and leg. I calmed down once I knew that they were going to return me to my home. (Yes, they were able to communicate with me without moving their mouth areas). When they brought me back to my bedroom, they were talking with me, instructing me about what not to say (little did they know that I had already learned that lying to my mother would be a sin). They made my bed which, at age five, I was too young to do adequately (especially the top bunk). My mother entered my bedroom all of a sudden, asking me who I was talking with. You should have seen the look on her face when she saw the perfecly made bed! "Who are you talking to? and WHO made your bed?!" When I told her it was the "little men" she asked "What little men?" I turned to point to them and, of course, they were gone. My mom felt my head and said, "Well it's cool, but you must have had a fever!" At that age, I did not understand why she could not accept what I was saying but I could see that Mom was somewhat scared and concerned. Mom was also curious, though, and continued to ask me questions about the experience throughout the next couple of days. I gave her details, including the name of the neighborhood boy who I saw in the ship's examining room (He had a very unusual last name, pronounced "hoozar" so my Mom thought I made it up). I remember Mom telling her friend, who came to visit the next day, that I must have had a fever and that I must have been hallucinating. When Mom was telling the family about my "fever" and "hallucinnation" at dinner the following evening, she was joking around: "Hoozar?! - What's a hoozar?!" Noone was laughing, though. My brother, who was six, informed my Mom that "Hoozar" was a boy in his class. We never spoke about the abduction again. ------------------ Have a great day!
