The effect of the Doppler effect on planetary orbits

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by TonyYuan, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    I have improved the program and I have eliminated the effects of time. I have observed some interesting data phenomena.
    1. Any celestial body that is undergoing strict circular movements, as long as it is affected by the outside world, the velocity changes, including the magnitude and direction of the velocity, will cause precession, the orbit will become elliptical, and it will accelerate its expansion, and the planets away from The elliptical orbit becomes larger and flatter. Although the rate of expansion is slow, it can be seen that the data is gradually increasing. And it is accelerating.
    2. By calculation, the deviation of the precession of Mercury and the precession of the earth due to the Doppler effect of the gravitational field are close to the actual observations every century.
    3. The above conclusions are all from the program. I have tested and verified a lot on Mercury and Earth models, and my models are reliable and correct.

    The Doppler effect can cause celestial bodies to move away and orbit to expand, which may seem strange, but the computational model does reflect these characteristics. I was surprised by the discovery of the program.

    When I complete my program, I will open it to friends who want it. I hope we will study this scientific phenomenon together.
     
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  3. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    I thought the doppler effect was only detected by outside observers. IE - The passengers on the train do not hear any pitch shift of the train whistle. Only people observing from the sidelines hear a pitch shift.
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Any simulation has a minimum resolution in time and in space - far larger than real life, which - as far as we can observe outside of theory - has no minimum resolution.

    You can only update x,y,z and t coordinates to a certain degree of granularity , and the errors that accrue from this quantization of dimensions are cumulative.

    I've done a few planetary simulations myself, and the first thing you have to do is decide how precise your distance and time increments are going to be. They can't be zero.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but what you are seeing is not a physical phenomenon; it is an artifact of a necessarily imperfect simulation.
     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure how you managed to
    but your description strongly suggests that time is certainly a component of your sim:

     
  8. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, researching celestial bodies requires good tools, and now I have at least one program tool that is satisfactory for conversion. Can be continuously improved and improved in the future. This program is very accurate in circular motion. With the introduction of the Doppler effect, I think there should be no reason to change this mathematical accuracy. But there may be a 0.00001% chance.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    "very" accurate is not good enough to eliminate artifacts like you are seeing.

    Your computer has neither the decimal precision nor the processing power to eliminate these artifacts.


    Serious question: what do you think the Doppler Effect is? And how do you think it has any bearing on orbital mechanics?
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    From limited interactions with Tony, I'm not sure he recognises the differences between Doppler, Cosmological redshift, and gravitational redshift...I could be wrong though.
     
  11. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    Doppler Effect Of Gravitational Field. It will unify classical physics and relativity.
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/vTBpR1KnAo293hnS6
    1.In a uniform gravitational field, the speed of light does not change.
    2.At different gravitational field strengths, the speed of light is different.
    (1)The stronger the gravitational field, the slower the light speed, and the weaker the gravitational field, the faster the light speed.
    (2)Light passing through an uneven gravitational field will cause refraction bending due to different speeds.
    3.The Doppler effect exists in the gravitational field.
    (1)If away from each other, the strength of the gravitational field will be smaller than that at the relatively stationary state, the larger the relative speed , the weaker the gravitational field;
    (2)If close to each other, the strength of the gravitational field will be greater than that at the relatively stationary state, the greater the relative speed, the stronger the gravitational field.
    4.There is a uniform gravitational field on the surface of the earth, and the speed of light measured in different directions is constant.
    5.To calculate the motion of celestial bodies with universal ravitation, the Doppler effect of the gravitational field needs to be considered. The greater the relative speed, the more pronounced.
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/8sGswt8dhJRsxHkJ8

    The Doppler effect is classical physics. This theory can be applied to mechanical waves, electromagnetic waves, and gravitational waves as well. Although gravitational waves are not mentioned in classical physics, the model I created for gravitational waves is a model of classical physics. The knowledge you need to understand it does not go beyond the scope of classical physics.

    The Doppler effect of the gravitational field I described is clear. The gravitational formula needs to include a velocity (not speed) parameter. F = G * M * m / r ^ 2 * f (x), x is the speed of light minus the component of v in the c direction.
    When x = 0, it is the gravitational strength when it is relatively stationary, F = G * M * m / r ^ 2, so f ( 0 ) = 1.
    When x = c, the gravitational wave cannot reach the object, so F = 0, so f ( c )= 0.
    F = G * M * m / r ^ 2 * f(x) = (G * M * m / r ^ 2) * x / c .

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/qPULD1VZFcDfCAh28
    The Doppler effect states that the wave receiving frequency becomes higher when the wave source moves toward the observer, and the wave receiving frequency becomes lower when the wave source moves away from the observer. The same conclusion can be reached when the observer moves.
    When the observer approaches the source, the observed source frequency is (u + v) / λ, otherwise the observed source frequency is (u-v) / λ.
    A frequently used example is the whistle of a train. When a train approaches an observer, its whistle will be harsher than usual. You can hear the harsh changes as the train passes.
    If you think of sound waves as pulses that are emitted at regular intervals, you can imagine that if you take a pulse every time you take a step, every pulse before you is closer to you than when you are standing still. The sound source behind you is a step further than when it was still.
    When the wave source and the observer have relative motion, the frequency received by the observer will change. In the unit time, the number of complete waves received by the observer increases, that is, the frequency of the received waves increases. For the same reason, when the observer is far away from the wave source, the number of complete waves received by the observer in a unit time is reduced, that is, the frequency received is reduced.
    The Doppler effect applies not only to sound waves, but also to all types of waves, including electromagnetic waves. Scientist Edwin Hubble uses the Doppler effect to conclude that the universe is expanding. He found that the frequency of light emitted by celestial bodies far from the galaxy became lower, that is, they moved to the red end of the spectrum, which is called redshift. The faster the celestial bodies leave the galaxy, the greater the redshift. Conversely, if the celestial body is moving towards the Milky Way, the light will be blue-shifted.
    In mobile communication, when the mobile station moves to the base station, the frequency becomes higher, and when it moves away from the base station, the frequency becomes lower, so we must fully consider the Doppler effect in mobile communication.

    This effect also occurs with volatile light, it is also known as the Doppler-Fizeau effect. Because the French physicist Fizeau (1819 ~ 1896) independently shifted the wavelength from stars in 1848 Explained and pointed out the method to use this effect to measure the relative speed of stars. The difference between light waves and sound waves is that changes in the frequency of light waves make people feel a change in color. If a star moves away from us, the spectrum of light The line moves in the direction of red light, called red shift; if the stars move towards us, the spectrum of light moves in the direction of purple light, called blue shift.

    You have been using the classic Doppler effect to calculate celestial motion data. But you are constantly negating the Doppler effect. In mobile communication technology, we have never used anything special relativity, we use the classic Doppler effect.

    If you still don't understand what is the classic Doppler effect, please google. paddoboy
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  12. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    Where does gravity come from?
    1. Newton said that gravity comes from mass, which means that energy comes from objects.
    2. The general relativity say it comes from the bending of space, that is to say, energy comes from space.

    For gravitational force from objects and for gravitational forces from space, x in the Doppler gravitational formula will lead to the opposite conclusion.
    F = G * M * m / r ^ 2 * f (x) = (G * M * m / r ^ 2) * x / c.
    If gravity comes from an object, the orbital eccentricity e of the celestial body will become larger.
    If the gravitational force comes from the curvature of space, the orbital eccentricity e of the celestial body will decrease.

    I simulated both cases, and the data e obtained is consistent with my analysis.
    So what is the truth? We know the eccentricity of the earth has dropped from e = 0.05 to now e = 0.0167. The e is continuously decreasing.
    Of course, you may say that the reason for the decline in eccentricity is due to the pull between the planets. I agree with this view, but I think another part is from the Doppler effect.
    My bold guess: the nature of gravity comes from the curvature of space. The gravitational field caused by this bending still cannot escape the Doppler effect.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    15,181
    I'm sure you are familiar with Einstein's "man in he box" which demonstrates the "equivalence principle"

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    https://www.astronomynotes.com/relativity/s3.htm

    Question: In these examples would there be a Doppler shift in any of the (apparent) diagonal or curved light beams?
    Question 2: The Doppler effect can be a causal result?? Is that not a contradiction in terms?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  14. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    If the velocity and gravitational fields are vertical, then there will be no Doppler effect.
     
  15. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    The Doppler effect finally reflects the change in the density of the gravitational field, and finally the form of the force is reflected on the celestial body.
     
  16. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    I saw this for the first time, but the name was mentioned by you before, box man.
     
  17. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    General relativity does not show space bending, but a more accurate description is space density. Because the space is 3D, of course it can be understood as a space depression in 2D space. Space density and mass are closely related, and gravity is a thing that Newton describes. Newton + Doppler can complete various celestial movements.

    With the Doppler effect of the gravitational field, you can observe the overall rotation of the orbit. The data in the program shows this characteristic very well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    From above:

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    https://www.astronomynotes.com/relativity/s4.htm

    I'm not sure, how to interpret all this but it might be of interest to your research.....

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  19. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    Thank you for providing this information. The Doppler effect is not complicated, and simple mathematical derivations can lead to formulas. It reflects a squeeze and stretch problem caused by inconsistent speeds.

    Today I went to the Physics Forum and posted a thread "Who will win this running race?", and soon I got several different answers. These answers are completely different from the Janus 's answer. But unfortunately it was quickly locked out. In the face of practical problems, special relativity manifests itself in addition to great difficulty and uncertainty. This is really not a characteristic that a theory should have.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  20. Halc Registered Senior Member

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    Tony here refers to frame dragging: the differing coordinate speed of light at different gravitational potentials. The proper speed of light remains at c everywhere.
    I don't think Tony knows the difference.

    As to his supposed model:
    Apparently this says that the model predicts that a body in a circular orbit will tend to become elliptical and will 'accelerate its expansion', whatever that means. In reality circular orbits tend to remain so. Elliptical orbits tend to circularize over time. Overall energy is not gained.

    The model seems to contradict empirical observations, hence the model doesn't seem viable.

    You didn't model the spin of the orbiting object, treating them instead as point masses. Anything that rotates should increase its angular rate over time, according to your equation. Empirical observation shows the opposite.

    I didn't see any answer to that one from Janus. I also didn't see 'several different answers' on that other forum, especially after the problem had been clarified.
    I gave the same answer as on that forum, but I gave two different answers depending on how on interpreted your question. On the other forum, they had to play 20 questions to figure out exactly what you meant by your picture (the fact that vy represented a component velocity relative to Earth, which was not clear).
    The thread was locked out because you broke multiple forum rules.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  21. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    If the distance and initial velocity given to the celestial body do not satisfy the law of gravity, the orbit of the celestial body will not be a circle. That's what I said.
     
  22. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    I haven't joined the spin of celestial body, it will also cause force, just like a basketball tumbling in the water, it can certainly pull the surrounding water.
    Any celestial body will have a precession phenomenon, so it is not obvious. Both mathematical calculations and program simulations make this conclusion.
     
  23. TonyYuan Registered Senior Member

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    I have calculated that the precession of Mercury is 40.3 " per century and the precession of the earth is 1.85 " per century under the Doppler effect.

    I do n’t know what the measurement result of the precession of the earth is. Does anyone know?

    I can calculate the precession of any planet, as long as you can tell me some basic information about it, including the distance to the perihelion, the distance to the perihelion, speed, eccentricity e.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020

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