The Nonsense of Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by RenaissanceMan, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Well when you don't say "I think" then it is a claim of knowledge.

    If you don't preface it with something it appears you are stating you know.

    "I strong believe god doesn't want that" "I can't envision my god wanting that"

    But I am glad you understand the difference, it's part of what I am suggesting is the line between faith only and claims of knowledge.
     
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  3. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    fine..i strongly believe god doesn't want religion..
    I strongly believe god wants us to question mans interpretation of who/what god is..
    I strongly believe god is happy with this conversation!..

    lol..happy?

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  5. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, mostly.

    None of those statements are claims of knowledge.

    However, the second one is what my earlier post was responding to and to address your original claim of theist without religion.

    "question mans interpretation of who/what god is.."

    Again, how are we going to get any closer to the truth by doing this ?

    Not saying you shouldn't question and scrutinize and just believe.

    But how is any of their information going to provide anything that could be considered valid or valuable on the subject of a god which can not be known ?

    I asked it many different ways and responded to this issue on post number 558.
     
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  7. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    there is that 'just' word....intones stagnation,inactivity,without further thought,limited to..


    yes humans are susceptible to error..that does not mean we are ALWAYS making errors..most of the time we do ok..we do better in small groups..we can do almost anything in large groups..
    there is value in each and every one of us..(some require a magnifying glass to find it..)
    search out each ones value and I BELIEVE you will see god work..
     
  8. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    the more ppl we ask the better it is to see the common denominator (groups that think alike count as one)
     
  9. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, there is value to each of us for sure.

    But you're not addressing the point which is the value we each have to define god.

    Once again, how is there any value in definitions about what god is, what it wants, doesn't want etc etc from us ?

    When the very subject to be defined is unknowable ?
     
  10. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Ah, so back to if a bunch of people believe in the same thing it makes it a stronger belief.

    Does it make it any more valid ?

    Asking more ppl to define god gets you no closer to the truth than defining it yourself. Because nobody can actually know anything about it.

    It's like 0 + 0 = 0
     
  11. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    how would you value these statements;
    God is Good.
    God is a bastard.
    God doesn't give a care.
    God is dead.

    the value is the value each of us assign to it..

    the value is wisdom..not knowledge.

    but not unfathomable..
    (spell check said it was right..)

    the ones that have their OWN opinion about god, not following someone else's beliefs like sheep (those types don't know what they believe)


    don't let that stop you..
    knowledge comes from questioning..
    wisdom comes from hearing..
     
  12. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    NMSquirrel,

    Correct, the value each of us assign to it. Which is subjective and it is also not truth. This is the problem. There is no truth in any of those statements. Because god is unknowable, we can not determine what value if any is in any of those statements.

    You can however believe that god is good or a bastard etc etc. You can have faith in any of those statements being true.

    But to define god, there meaningless to anybody but yourself, or someone who just wants to nod and agree with you.

    Nope. Wisdom requires some sort of knowledge to make the best or correct choice or choices. There is no knowledge, no reasoning or logic involved.

    You keep wanting to make a leap from something that is unknowable to something that has clues or definitions that might be accurate in some way. But they can not be, because the subject is in fact unknowable. This is difficult to accept I know, but it's just the way it is.

    Well that is the same thing. Maybe imaginable would work. But then we are back to just beliefs. Which is fine.

    example:

    I imagine that god would be good.

    I understand, I mean it's your life, if you have many friends that believe god is what you believe and that you can all get along etc etc then great.

    How many of them are religious ? How many of them believe in the texts ?
    How many of them make statements of knowledge ?

    How many of them start to make definitions of god that they can not possibly know, yet make the claim anyway and then act as if anyone who disagrees is wrong ?

    LOL. Don't let it stop me from learning from others about something that can not be known.

    No, I don't think so. Homey don't play that.

    I will keep questioning as I have done for over 30 years on the subject. My philosophy is based on logic and reason. I also have no problem with theists, because basically, since the subject is unknowable, there is no logic or reason for me to make the claim that a god does not or can not exist. I can not know that. I do have issues with religious claims though.

    Which is what we have been trying to separate this whole time. Being a theist without religion.
     
  13. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    we CAN determine the value of those statements to ourselves.
    we cannot determine the value of those statements for others.
    we cannot assign them a value that others would agree to.
    the value is subjective to how YOU value them for yourself.
    i cannot tell you any one is more valued to you than any other,that is your call..
    IOW..do you believe the salesman when he tells you its worth X, or do you have an idea what a thing is worth to you..

    truth can be subjective..
    these statements are true;
    the only time i get pulled over is when my insurance expires..
    sciforums makes me miss some of my shows..
    i can give my daughter the best advice in the world,but cause its from me she will do the opposite..

    you just contradicted yourself..lol..

    i think the word i haven't used yet is 'discernible'..
    do you make ALL your decisions with full knowledge?
    or do you have some decisions you have to make a 'best guess' at,god is like that..all we get is a 'best guess'..


    actually i all my friends believe in god to one extent or another, and no we don't always agree..but we do agree that one should not force others to believe the same way..IOW you are entitled to your opinion,and i'm entitled to mine..when we die we will pry find out we were both right..

    i think only one is religious..(following the doctrine their church has put forth)
    the rest are free thinkers..

    not applicable as i shy away from ppl who treat the bible as a rule book..
    IOW they see it the same as i, its a guide book.not a rule book..

    everyone of them..and i understand it is only their opinion..

    first part, all of them..
    second part, none of them..
    (i don't stay friend with ppl who are always telling me i'm wrong all the time)


    i know you understand..you just want an answer everyone can agree on..
    you want god defined..you know god cannot be defined, so that is your excuse not to believe..you do not have to justify that belief to anyone..some of us just like to argue (not me..lol

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    thats good..keep questioning..god can utilize you wherever you are at..
    (don't go there..you KNOW what i mean by that..)

    you put it like that makes it sound not right..lol..
    joining a religion is NOT the only way to God..
    the books that were not included in the canonization of the bible, says such.
    (no i have not read those books,but i have heard enough about them to get a clue as to what is in them..

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  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. (That's why I'm here.)

    I assign my own meaning/value. However, there are some people whose opinions/values/meanings I respect. And they may expose me to an idea/concept I wouldn't have thought of on my own. From that comes wisdom.
     
  15. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

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    993
    No it can't.
     
  16. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

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    Kierkegaard may not agree with ya, Kenny..

    Just sayin'.

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  17. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

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    That just makes him wrong. Jus' sayin'
     
  18. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

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    Are you saying that anyone that disagrees with you, on any given subject, must be wrong?

    Even someone of Kierkegaard's stature? (not saying I'm a huge fan, but I give him his due)


    I've seen you flat out call people wrong before, when you could've used the word disagree, so I am genuinely interested to hear your response to the query.
     
  19. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    NMSquirrel,

    Just wasn't clear enough.

    Wisdom requires some sort of knowledge to make the best choice. There is no knowledge, logic or reason involved in definitions about god.

    I didn't think I needed to add that, since that is the subject we have been discussing.

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    Yes. If you want to believe in them. But they don't have any truth in them. No facts, nothing of substance. Again, faith and faith only.

    Correct

    Yes, so I would scrutinize the information to try and determine it's worth. But you are correct that it's your choice in the end.

    It can but it depends. How can there be any truth subjective or objective about god ? Since it is unknowable.

    Only to yourself, which is just faith. A leap of faith because there isn't any knowledge.

    A guess correct. I know I am going to piss you off with this. But even the "best" part is not applicable. Since it implies that we have something to go on. We can put other factors in and even though we don't know the answer we can eliminate some things to arrive at a better or best guess.

    With god, being unknowable, we have nothing to go on to make a better or best guess. It's just a guess or faith. You are choosing to believe because. That's it.

    Is there anything wrong with admitting that you have faith only, never knowledge ?

    Faith does not require religion, faith doesn't require any explanation, no definitions. It's for you, it's your belief.

    Sounds like you have some good friends.

    Most of mine are atheist/agnostic. But I do have some close friends that are theists, we generally don't discuss god or religion anymore, because we have already hashed out where each other stands. We never try to convert each other.

    Life is too short to bash each others beliefs.

    Good to hear.

    Yeah, well we have been over this before. How can it be a guide regarding god ?

    If you feel especially brave. Ask them how it can be a guide ? Then see the examples of claims of knowledge come out. You can play devil's advocate for a bit.

    Do they know that it is only opinion ?

    Ok, so you just accept them as opinions and avoid anyone who takes themselves and their opinions on the subject too seriously. That is wise.

    I only want god defined by those who make statements of knowledge.

    Yes, god can not be defined with any knowledge only belief.

    I choose not to believe because there is no evidence for god, there is no reason to add something (god) that is not needed for us to go on our way. Other than that, I have no knowledge either way. I can't know if there is a god or not.

    I do hope there is something else to it all. But there isn't any logical reason to believe there is or is not. We just can't know. So what will be will be. I don't need to believe in god for it to happen.

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    I will play nice. Just you're belief. No problem.

    I agree but as our discussion has shown, it's a lot easier said then done. They tend to be tied at the hip. But if you can pull it off more power to ya. I think, as I said before that you're wise to avoid those that want to force their beliefs on you or those that claim the only way.

    Think for yourself, as you've said. That way you know what you believe.
     
  20. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    you not agreeing,does not constitute me being wrong.
     
  21. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    there is more to faith than just 'only'

    i think they call that blind faith..

    IOW you both were talking and no-one was listening..lol
    correct?

    do you believe in the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?
    i don't let that distract me from finding wisdom/knowledge..

    they do now..

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    correct..that is how we find more info about god..the more data..etc..

    discretion..

    you are still trying to measure god..put him in a box..
    think outside the box..

    nobody ever said god was logical..

    if only ppl could understand there is a difference between the religion and the believer..

    exactly!
    there is knowledge..
    (and subjective at that..)
    lol..and it qualifies for 'how can you have knowledge in something that doesn't exist?'
     
  22. RenaissanceMan RenaissanceMan Registered Senior Member

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    You pretend that you "understand." Of course anyone who disagrees with you does not "understand."

    You pretend that you are a great arbiter of "reason" even as you demonstrate anti-reason time and time again.

    Atheists, like you, pretend that Christianity and "reason" are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth, so naturally atheists prattle this falsehood relentlessly. It is the sine qua non of atheism.



    Atheists promote Darwinism in the identical fashion they promote so many other atheist falsehoods. Nothing in Darwinism is selective except survival and reproduction. Hence we see anti-social actions done throughout all species, most hideously by human beings. That atheists continue to feign some imaginary morality is one of the biggest of atheists' many Big Lies.
    There is absolutely no basis for atheist morality. Your king of atheists, Richard Dawkins, has expressed his deep admiration for Jesus Christ, claiming that Dawkins' super morality is very much like that of Jesus. Unable to tear Jesus down, atheists are now pretending that He is one of them.
     
  23. RenaissanceMan RenaissanceMan Registered Senior Member

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    birch is a godless leftist and therefore claims to be better, smarter, more moral, more reasonable and logical than anybody who is not, like him, a godless leftist.


    Excellent points, brief, salient, absolutely true.


    Hateful, intolerant condescension is the sine qua non of godless leftists.
    It goes back to the very title of the thread, viz. "nonsense."
     

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