The of begining life on earth

Of the many reasons Nobel Prize winners Crick and Watson independently concluded life did not originate on Earth, was metal ores and non-metallic minerals.

The many organisms, most notably humans, require metals and non-metallic minerals in order to function. The most obvious is iron in human blood. Iron doesn't really pose a problem for two reasons, namely that it is very abundant and it is readily accessible.

It's the other metal ores and non-metallic minerals the human body requires that pose the problems. Some of those metal ores and minerals exist only trace amounts on Earth, or are locked deep in the Earth's crust and not accessible, or both.

So the question is how do you get access to something in trace amounts or that is deep in the Earth's crust (and often locked with other metals and minerals).

Crick and Watson concluded that life came from a planet where those metals and minerals were far more abundant and existed in greater than mere trace amounts and which were also readily accessible.

I call appeal to authority fallacy with a plus 4 roll

but more pertinently .....

When watson and crick were noted biologists, we hadn't even heard of hydrothermal vents, let alone found any, let alone find that the plumes contained high concentrations of metal salts (including rare heavy metals), let alone begun to hypothesise that they might be ideal sites for the formation of early life, let alone test the hypothesis and find good supporting evidence for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg&playnext=1&list=PL0696457CAFD6D7C9

Way to win a Nobel Prize!

(feel free to skip the bits that bash the fanatics (although that's always fun) and get to the meat which starts at about 2.40)
 
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I call appeal to authority fallacy with a plus 4 roll

but more pertinently .....

When watson and crick were noted biologists, we hadn't even heard of hydrothermal vents, let alone found any, let alone find that the plumes contained high concentrations of metal salts (including rare heavy metals), let alone begun to hypothesise that they might be ideal sites for the formation of early life, let alone test the hypothesis and find good supporting evidence for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg&playnext=1&list=PL0696457CAFD6D7C9

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Very nice presentation, but It does not say this are words of Szostak , but based of works os Szostak , beside as the lipid misele was formed a nd the polymer was inside it started to polymerize. I know you polymerize that way by having free radical as initiator in case of making polyamide you have to polymerize by condensation . So that is a not very plausible way , beside it says that in the beginning of earth formation there were large quantity of organic molecules that is an other question were can be disputed. My point lets not dispute the creationists , lets work to find the truth. Science is to find the real mechanism and not to fight opinion :D
 
Mod note:

Yaracuy,

You have mentioned “God” and “creator” at least four times now.

yaracuy said:
There must have been a creator for the beginning of life on the earth (post #47)

yaracuy said:
Apparently some thing is missing ... The creator of life (post #49)

yaracuy said:
most people talk after the nucleotide were created or synthesized let say by God sense I don't hear other input (post #73)

yaracuy said:
the Spirit of God created them which comes from an other planet (post #75)

This is a science forum. If you want to discuss science, then please feel free to do so. The scientific method proceeds on the basis of a naturalistic mechanism behind observed phenomena and data. If there are gaps in scientific knowledge or science cannot explain something (which is certainly true of our understanding of abiogenesis), science does not throw its hands up and declare that ‘it must have been God’. If you want to speculate on the role of God or a ‘creator’ then you are no longer being scientific and I will move the thread to a non-science forum. (Note: depending on the nature of the conversation, this may be the Cesspool where threads are automatically locked.)
 
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Mod note:

Yaracuy,

You have mentioned “God” and “creator” at least four times now.









This is a science forum. If you want to discuss science, then please feel free to do so. The scientific method proceeds on the basis of a naturalist mechanism behind observed phenomena and data. If there are gaps in scientific knowledge or science cannot explain something (which is certainly true of our understanding of abiogenesis), science does not throw its hands up and declare that ‘it must have been God’. If you want to speculate on the role of God or a ‘creator’ then you are no longer being scientific and I will move the thread to a non-science forum. (Note: depending on the nature of the conversation, this may be the Cesspool where threads are automatically locked.)

Thank you for the advice , I did not know keep track on how many time I have mentioned, In the future I will attempt to abstain .
It is nice of you to be polite .
Would you kindly detail as to what is meant by "depending on the nature of the conversation, this may be the Cesspool where threads are automatically locked.)[/QUOTE]":confused:
 
Yaracuy, if a thread becomes un-objective and un-scientific when posted in a scientific part of the forum it risks being demoted into a part of the forum called the cesspool. This is where threads that are decomposing are sent to die..
 
Yaracuy, if a thread becomes un-objective and un-scientific when posted in a scientific part of the forum it risks being demoted into a part of the forum called the cesspool. This is where threads that are decomposing are sent to die..
"Unscientific" means that it does not conform to the scientific method. This requires, among other things, that all assertions are supported by empirical evidence, and that there is no reliance on the supernatural to explain away phenomena that are not yet fully understood.
 
Mod note:

Yaracuy,

You have mentioned “God” and “creator” at least four times now.


With all do respect on the post # 49 I did mention there must be a Creator of life no thing more.
Now let me analyze the word " creator " You are a man from the lab.. I am sure you have created some procedures . Would you not be a creator ?
I assume you are a male and you have children, Then Have you not given or created life to your child ?:D
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" ‘creator’ then you are no longer being scientific and I will move the thread to a non-science forum."
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Is the word creation acceptable as the beginning ?
 
Yaracuy, if a thread becomes un-objective and un-scientific when posted in a scientific

As for me, my intention of posting scientifically oriented because it helps me to search in the literature based on others posting and showing their position. It is as you have an hypothesis and you post it it means you submit your thought for scrutiny. :eek:
 
Is the word creation acceptable as the beginning?

Yes, in the sense that organic chemical reactions “create” new molecules. No, if it carries a creationist connotation and implies a creator. I think it is possible to use words like 'form', 'develop', 'polymerise', 'condense' etc. that imply only natural mechanisms.


Then next question becomes how do we get the monomers. I don't have any problem accepting once we have the templet,

You’ve asked how nucleotides might have arisen in the pre-biotic Earth. I don’t know the answer; it’s not my field.

But, from my point of view, there is nothing particularly unusual about a nucleotide as an organic molecule. It is composed of phosphate, ribose and a purine or pyrimidine. Phosphate occurs naturally in the Earth’s crust. Purines and pyrimidines are merely cyclic or bicyclic nitrogen-containing compounds. I believe these sorts of cyclic organic molecules form naturally. Similarly, ribose is merely a simple carbohydrate. The precursors to such molecules have been found both here and in outer space.

I see no reason to believe that, given enough time, nucleotides could not have formed spontaneously via natural organic chemical reaction mechanisms.

Besides, there are hypotheses that state there were self-replicating systems that pre-date nucleic acids and the “RNA world” and that drove the development of nucleic acids.
 
Yes, in the sense that organic chemical reactions “create” new molecules. No, if it carries a creationist connotation and implies a creator. I think it is possible to use words like 'form', 'develop', 'polymerise', 'condense' etc. that imply only natural mechanisms.




You’ve asked how nucleotides might have arisen in the pre-biotic Earth. I don’t know the answer; it’s not my field.

But, from my point of view, there is nothing particularly unusual about a nucleotide as an organic molecule. It is composed of phosphate, ribose and a purine or pyrimidine. Phosphate occurs naturally in the Earth’s crust. Purines and pyrimidines are merely cyclic or bicyclic nitrogen-containing compounds. I believe these sorts of cyclic organic molecules form naturally. Similarly, ribose is merely a simple carbohydrate.
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Yes they are simple molecules ,but so far to make any of those simple molecules in controlled condition many steps are necessary. Some workers have claimed in succeeding in making them , were not able to repeat them .As you say " Purines and pyrimidines are merely cyclic or bicyclic nitrogen-containing compounds" but fine make an attempt to hook them up in a simple way with a ribose, or make an attempt to phosphorilate a ribose
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I see no reason to believe that, given enough time, nucleotides could not have formed spontaneously via natural organic chemical reaction mechanisms.
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Sure , give me time . I prefer give me controlled conditions and in the lab we have controlled condition, but to make those molecules it takes many steps.
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Besides, there are hypotheses that state there were

self-replicating systems that pre-date nucleic acids and the “RNA world” and that drove the development of nucleic acids.
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I read this there is a lot of hand waving , but very little facts.:bugeye:
 
Well, what else do you need to know? So far all your questions have been answered. You've been told what you'd need to produce these proteins, even though you'd never be able to afford the equipment. You know that basic molecules have been produced using a chemical soup end electricity. You know that to make nucleotides you need to program another organism to make them for you. I don't really see what else there is to say on the matter.
 
[ I don't really see what else there is to say on the matter.[/QUOTE]


That is the end of my question.
I am not a biologist , but in my discussion I have learned that I should learn more about the biochemical reaction in a cell to appreciate more in how thew organized or programmed system functions.:)
 
Actually Yaracuy, I've just thought of another way to obtain neucleotides. What you can do is this. Get a load of yeast, Smash it all up using an ultrasonic probe, and put it all in a bucket with 0.1% sodium Azide (preserves protein but extremely poisionous) and a solution of EDTA at about Ph 7.5. Then get a glass column and fill it with a molecular filter gel called octyl sepharose. Pour the liquid into the filter and test what comes out the other end. The proteins will come out at different times according to thier molecular weight and size. Once you know how long it takes for your neucleotides to come out you can collect them in a vial.
Well, that's the principle. Refine it and you'll get some neucleotides. What you do with them after that is up to you.
 
Actually Yaracuy, I've just thought of another way to obtain neucleotides. What you can do is this. Get a load of yeast, Smash it all up using an ultrasonic probe, and put it all in a bucket with 0.1% sodium Azide (preserves protein but extremely poisionous) and a solution of EDTA at about Ph 7.5. Then get a glass column and fill it with a molecular filter gel called octyl sepharose. Pour the liquid into the filter and test what comes out the other end. The proteins will come out at different times according to thier molecular weight and size. Once you know how long it takes for your neucleotides to come out you can collect them in a vial.
Well, that's the principle. Refine it and you'll get some neucleotides. What you do with them after that is up to you.


Pardon my ignorance at a PH of 7.5 the nucleotide will be ATP or ADP type I nudestad there will be different bases.:eek:
 
No, it would be one of the four bases. ADP and ATP are different things. They are found in the mitochondria and are used for generating the cells energy. Each of the bases, A,C,T,and D have different molecular weights so would come out of the molecular filter at different times. This is good as they would be quite pure.
 
No, it would be one of the four bases. ADP and ATP are different things. They are found in the mitochondria and are used for generating the cells energy. Each of the bases, A,C,T,and D have different molecular weights so would come out of the molecular filter at different times. This is good as they would be quite pure.


See I have learned one thing more . So you are saying , you get free bases without ribose attached , And that comes from Mitocondrium Ok:eek:
 
How life started or come in the planet earth.?
How would I answer this question to my children ?
I would like to have reasonable biochemical approach to my question
Thank you.:eek:

Have you known about the big bang theory that is the origin of all the lives on the planet earth. Question of human existence on it is something else that includes other beliefs. But Big Bang is something that truly happened and let organic material survived on earth!
 
Have you known about the big bang theory that is the origin of all the lives on the planet earth. Question of human existence on it is something else that includes other beliefs. But Big Bang is something that truly happened and let organic material survived on earth!




Oy Big Bang and organic material on earth according to the theory they are to far in time I might agree that earth is a second generation planet , meaning that our planet was a planet before it is now earth.:)
 
Have you known about the big bang theory that is the origin of all the lives on the planet earth. Question of human existence on it is something else that includes other beliefs. But Big Bang is something that truly happened and let organic material survived on earth!

That made absolutely no sense. The "big bang theory" is a model of how our universe rapidly inflated from a small structure. Human existence is not really related. It is a result of evolution on Earth.
 
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