The Paradox of Our Age

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Kittamaru, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    I would say spirituality can be a good thing - religion is the danger. As Mahatma Ghandi is attributed with saying - 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'
     
    DaveC426913 likes this.
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I hear that more and more.

    "I'm spiritual; I'm emphatically not religious."
     
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  5. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    The difference, mostly, would seem to be the showboating and gloating many "religious" folk seem to partake in.
     
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  7. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    It's a sing-song description of thought bubbles which the individual comparisons are NOT paradoxical

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  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I dont think spirituality is a good thing as it has no basis in reality in my view and it all seems as bordering on delusion.

    Why humans are prone to fairey tales, fiction, superstition, make believe and generally stuff that has no basis in fact or observation is something I just can not understand.

    Cant folk think????? and not follow blindly nonsense such as Dr. Bob dribbles and work out for themselves how to manage their lives and behaviour.

    Why this need for wanting more than one go at life and a belief in souls and spirits?

    Do any of these spiritual folk ever ask themselves..... Really is any of this made up stuff in the smallest part believable?

    I guess if you are in a community where everyone says they believe something no one has the courage to stand up and go against the mob and stand up and say to folk like Dr. Bob... You are talking absolute nonsense...

    Why would anyone think Dr. Bob was making sense in anyway what so ever?

    Everything he said as quoted is transparently dribble and yet the mob nods as if it is wise and observant... Its nonsense.

    Oh but he is spiritual... yes indeed.

    Alex
     
  9. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    You are, of course, most welcome to your opinion Xelasnave - however, I think this is a case of simply having to agree to disagree whilst still respecting ones fundamental right (at least in this country) to hold a differing opinion. The fact that you feel the need to (seemingly) insult anyone who believes in something you don't... though, again, that would be your right.
     
  10. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Now now

    Sit down

    Cross your legs

    Put your wrist on your knees

    Make a circle with forefinger and thumb

    Together now Ummmmmm

    Little deeper Ummmmmm

    Better?

    Isn't it good to be spiritual?

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  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I dont see such a principle opperating in your country and from the outside the various street clashes I get to see on tv would seem to support my view.
    I dont really mean to insult folk but I could see that if one does not see things as I do my critism will seem insulting. However I do not believe stating the obvious as I do about these matters need be seen as insulting as I really think I am only calling the position as it exists.
    Believing in make believe is so un necessary.
    Alex
     
  12. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    The founding principles of the US include freedom of (and yes, that includes from) religion.
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    No.
    It is a lie and why folk are happy to lie to themselves is beyond my understanding.
    Alex
     
  14. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    You say "it is a lie" as though that were a simple statement of fact... last I checked, nobody was able to disprove the existence of God (hell, we can't even prove or disprove our own existence, if you want to get philosophical about it).
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose a tree falling in the forrest does not make a sound if you want to get philosophical about it but in reality such an event will produce a sound if we simply think realistically about the matter.

    I dont think one has any difficulty in understanding or believing we exist even if some will say that the proof is illusive.

    We have reasonable indicators that we exist however there are no reasonable indicators that any part of the spiritual world exists, including God, other than various unsupported stories about how various folk believe this or that.

    And various religions cite their religious book as authority and claim such books although clearly written and published by man are indeed influenced by their unevidenced God...and yet we do no find perfection in such books as one could expect if written under divine influence but many glaring mistakes that one must wonder how any God would allow to slip thru, either at the time of writting, editing or publishing...and if now someone points out a clear mistake they will be ignored and the mistake deemed the fault of an ancient who did not know better in those times and then God somehow let the mistake slip on by.

    Under Gods influence is a little rich when mistakes are rather common thru out...but with faith one simply overlooks such an inconvenient fact..how convenient how contrived how careless with facts.

    But dont question my faith they say.

    Why not I say for belief is mere opinion and your opinion has no support whatsoever in reality.

    I say that spirituality is a superstitious invention, a clear lie, with no basis in fact and I have no fear that anyone can come forward and offer any evidence that will even cause mild doubt that such an assertion is not rock solid fact.

    If one reads the bible from cover to cover and does not switch off when you encounter the nonsense or simply incorrect facts I doubt, that, after an honest review, you can say with a straight face or reasonable conviction that the book was written by anyone under Gods direction or influence.

    Unfortunately very few humans, having been programed from an early age with any religious doctrine, have the ability to read all the bible and come to a well informed opinion on the matter.

    It is no surprise that many believers admit that they never have read their bible.
    And they dont even think that is the least bit odd.

    I say spirituality is a lie, and that such claim could easily be rejected on presentation of just one small piece of reliable evidence, if there was any, that offers a reasonable indication that there is any basis in reality to the various claims made under the banner of spirituality....which makes one wonder why such evidence can never be offerred.
    Well having wondered the answer is clear...there is no reasonable evidence and there never will be.

    I believe the falling tree will make a sound because I can replicate the event and come to a conclusion based on observation of the unfolding of a factual event and that is the difference with spirituality...it can not offer similar evidence.

    I can not prove a negative but I have no doubt that I could meet the requirement of a court of law which demands proof beyond a reasonable doubt...is there less than a reasonable doubt that spirituality is a lie?

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Back to the OP.
    My observations re spirituality only have bearing on the OP is that a back ground in spirituality may offer an explanation why anyone would listen to Dr Bob and not conclude, after the first minutes, that he was talking absolute dribble...our buildings are taller but what our tempers are shorter ... I have to read it again maybe I got it wrong.
    Alex
     
  17. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    Having read the bible (several versions) several times, my takeaway from it is that it is the recordings of mortal men who were attempting to report, to the best of their ability, on what was happening around them and to them. They could very well be the "word of God", but it is as it is heard through the ears and seen by the eyes of mortal, fallible men, and then passed down in story, both written and verbal, translated numerous times, and then controlled exclusively by a large political entity (the Holy Catholic Churchâ„¢) who were the only ones able to read and write at the time. It is also quite old, and was written in a time that would be completely alien for anyone today.

    Inconsistencies? Of course there are. Self contradictions, aplenty. The entire Old Testament, for example, needs to be all but thrown away with the birth of Christ... and yet some still like to use the "Old Laws" as weapons against those they dislike... such is human nature.

    You say Spirituality is a lie based on a lack of evidence... there was a time when the same could have been said about the germ theory of disease - we could not see them, so they couldn't possibly exist. This kind of thing has happened time and time again in history; maybe one day it will happen with this, as well. Though, one could say it already has, as there is significant archaeological evidence to support many of the stories in the Bible.

    Obviously, this could all be a huge coincidence, but it seems too convenient for that to be the case... and that's to say nothing of the fact that Spirituality existed long before Christianity did.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm curious how you define spirituality. I think spirituality is a lot broader than you think.
    A supernatural entity watching over us is only one narrow slice of a large spirituality pie.

    Some people people that the universe has an amount of balance - karma - if you will. But there is no entity at all associated with this type of spirituality.
    Someone close to me believes that our consciousness merges into a collective (a non-sentient collective).
    Believing in Gaia is spiritual. So is Wicca.
    There are innumerable other examples.

    Now, I'm with you - I'm an atheist and aspiritual - but even I would not go so far as to assert that all spirituality is a lie.
     
  19. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Spirituality, what's that?

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  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well if clearly it is unreliable why would anyone give it a second thought.

    So we find a text book which tells us the Earth is flat do we keep that book and hold it up as useful now that it was clearly wrong with a tag excuse that those who wrote it did not know any better?

    We would not have any use for such a text book other than a curiosity reflecting at time when humans held an incorrect view of the world.

    So why is the bible different.

    And if God is overviewing all why does he not intervene and put correct thoughts in the mind of the author, editor or publisher?

    For something that should not need any excuse given it is presented as the word of God the bible can only survive by adding one lame excuse to a seemingly never ending list.

    If you came across someone in the real world who was so wrong on so many things would that observation of his errors not entitle you to disregard anything he said as being entirely suspect.

    It is the inability to accept errors in the bible with no concern I find strange and yet in real life if you found your doctor made only one mistake you would start to have doubts but after a few mistakes you would lable him as incompetent.

    I mean why this double standard of critical thinking? is there any reason for such opposite approaches to analysis?
    Yes that is fair comment.

    So pre seeing germs thru the microscope speculation was ok?

    I cant see God and I have no idea of who he is or his purpose but no problem I will make up anything I like and we can take that as fact.

    No no no.

    Well one would expect that all archaeological evidence would support all the stories in the bible...but they dont.

    Take the biblical flood.

    Clearly not a world event but certainly floods have happened but to suggest one family could have built a boat and rounded up all species is simply laughable.

    And yet that story will be defended as being true.

    And the art of story telling probably goes right back also but an ancient fairy tale will always be a fairy tale. ..

    If there is a God is it not reasonable to expect that we would have certainty just as we have certainty about germs and the amount of water available that tells us a biblical flood was impossible.
    Why can we know so much but the main game as beleivers have it...is a mystery.

    Why would God let us know so much yet hide his purpose, and supposedly ours, in inaccurate stories that as you say are clearly corrupted for a multitude of reasons.

    The simple answer is because there is no God.

    ..the alternative
    evasive answers that hope to support a view of a God go on and on, but not one adds up or shows anything that could give us an inkling that any of mans views, as to there being a God or what is his purpose may be, has any basis in fact... so why be content to just make something up.

    Spirituality is fiction a nonsense that folk indulge in much the same as reading a fairy tale.

    Some like the fairy tale so much that they wish it were real...but there is no prince charming..he was made up...there is no Santa..he was made up...there are no ghosts, gobblins, demons, angles, spirits, easter bunny and the countless made up characters invented by imaginative story tellers...they are made up.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well I suspect you may not make such an assertion but I suggest that may be more from the approach of keeping the options open and that is reasonable ...however I could challenge you to offer one form of spirituality that is not a lie and I will bet that when pressed you will not offer something specific as a rebutal to my claim.

    Alex
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not keeping any options open. I've placed my bet.

    But I'm not so certain of the universe that I am prepared to say I am right and all other beliefs are wrong.

    I would have to know them all, wouldn't I? And that's impossible.

    Spirituality is not nearly as well-defined as 'God'. There are almost as many forms of spirituality as there are people on the planet. It is impossible to dismiss them outright without first hearing their tenets.

    It is not my place to. It's yours to show there are no exceptions to your assertion. Your sweeping statement puts the onus on you to refute each version presented to you. And you'll have each and every one of them one at a time, on its own merits.
    Until you've done that (and it can't be done) you cannot defend your assertion.
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thats ok. But I am prepared to approach this stuff with the same closed mind as do those who want a God to be real and will not fir a moment accept they could be wrong.
    Lowering to their level is ok for me.
    Sure it is but go ahead and defend a form of spirituality of which you are aware.
    Its not impossible as I have already dismissed them...easy.
    Present away.
    Why not. Spirituality is a lie feel free to show why I am wrong..
    Alex
     

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