The true Fallen Angel

Discussion in 'Religion' started by kx000, Oct 2, 2023.

  1. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Would you believe in God if we could have a fallen angel? Would you believe in (transcend) pleasure and pain? Would you identify with the fallen angel of light, Lucifer? Do you believe in knowledge of good and evil? Would you be spiritual if you could help feeble beings, and be the keeper of good and evil? Would you think that scientific atheism is temptation if you were a believer? Would you believe in things other than God, like super heroes, or world peace? Do you believe in the angel of temperance who helps as the warden of the hospital and prison world in the here after?
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This sounds like a sermon. It's pretty far-reaching.

    Why don't you collect your thoughts and answer some of these questions yourself?
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Let's see:
    No
    No
    No
    Yes, it seems pretty straightforward
    No
    No
    Yes I "believe" in world peace in that I believe we can get close to that
    No
     
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  7. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    it would be logical, but it still has to be proven.

    Yes. As it is the best possible out come of life.

    Yes. A fallen angel is theologically correct. It makes God rational since there is suffering, but we can still relent, and be happy for the rest of time, that is light barer.

    Yes, as it is the all seeing eye, and the warden of Hades.

    I believe in God, and a messiah.
     
  8. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    The fallen angel is neither evil, nor suffering. It is the response to both, it is our sorrow, and our wrath, and duty is Gods own. They exist in descent of God as Love and Hate, salvation and the savior, and as faith and belief. Suffering is the enemy of the fallen, and the fallen are friends to God. Suffering is not the fall, it is the thing that falls you, and God is just and will help too.
     
  9. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

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    These are things that were made up to explain the world. They do not exist.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    This sounds a lot like a sermon...
    How would you go about verifying that something was a fallen angel?

    Suppose that - somehow - you could verify that. Would that in any way be evidence for the existence of a God? I don't see how.
    I believe in pleasure and pain. I don't know what you mean by "transcend", in this context.
    In what way? Are you referring to something in the bible here?
    I believe that we can consider some actions to be good and others evil. Does that count?
    "Spiritual" is a very vague term. What do you mean when you say "spiritual"? Are you "spiritual"?
    A believer in what?

    As I understand atheism, it isn't necessarily connected to science. Either you're convinced there is some God or you aren't. If you are, you're a theist; if you aren't, you're an atheist. People can become convinced - either way - for many different reasons.

    If you're the sort of person who wants to believe in things that are true, then science seems like a good way to uncover reliable truths about the world. Religion, not so much.
    I believe in superheros. I believe they are the protagonists in many fantastical stories. A bit like gods, actually. Do I believe that there are real superheros, with magic-like powers? Not at the moment, due to lack of evidence for any. How about you?

    Do I think that world peace exists right now? I do not. Do I think it could exist? Perhaps. I'm not sure how you're defining it. You'll probably need to explain; then we can discuss.
    No. I don't currently believe any angels are real. Apparently, you do. Why do you believe angels are real?
    Which fallen angel? Where can I find this fallen angel of yours?
    I'm sorry; I don't understand. Is this angel of yours like a being - like a sort of person? Or is it more like an emotion? Most people who use the word "angel" are referring to a supernatural person-like being, like the servant of some god or other. Some angels have fluffy wings, I'm told.
    How do you know all this?
    You're not sounding very coherent at this point. What are you talking about?
    Nah. You've lost me. No idea what you're trying to say.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Why?
     
  12. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    5,106
    kx000: You should of created separate threads and explained your position for each better. I'll do a billvon special:

    1) No (Would you believe in God if we could have a fallen angel?) What would the fallen angel do exactly? Lie around smoking dope all day?
    2) Yes (Would you believe in (transcend) pleasure and pain?)
    3) Yes (Would you identify with the fallen angel of light, Lucifer?) I'm a rebel at heart.
    4) Yes (Do you believe in knowledge of good and evil?)
    5) Depends who the feeble beings are. (Would you be spiritual if you could help feeble beings, and be the keeper of good and evil?)
    6) Yes (Would you think that scientific atheism is temptation if you were a believer?) How many kids throw away their faith when they start reading up on science at college/university?
    7) Maybe (Would you believe in things other than God, like super heroes, or world peace?) Aliens...
    8) No (Do you believe in the angel of temperance who helps as the warden of the hospital and prison world in the here after?) Where are you getting this information from?
     
  13. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    5,134
    1. A fallen angel is meant to temper the devil, and deliver mankind to God.
    2. This is the nature of one of the fallen angels. The point of it is to transcend the negative aspects of life, in this instance pleasure and pain.
    3. Lucifer is no rebel, He is the fallen angel, He fell to the rebel, after an eternity of keeping it locked away as the angel of temptation, which is the vernacular for the guardian angels of the prison world God created.
    4. Do you now? Can you say why?
    5. The feeble being just wish to be. They can be women.
    8. Why do you believe in knowledge of good and evil, and belief in pleasure and pain, but not temperance? They are the same thing. Temperance is the angel of balance and the warden of Hades. I get this information from my imagination.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    What???
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    This explains a lot!
     
  16. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

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    Angels were thought to take the stars and planets around their orbits.
     
  17. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    5,106
    So what are angels supposed to do?

    Can you give a few names of these fallen angels?

    Fascinating. So is Lucifer the good guy?

    My understanding of good and evil is subjective, and so I'm obviously correct.

    Who, rather than what I would consider.

    It's not a case of belief in temperance, it's a state of being.

    Great using your imagination in philosophy, but you need a yardstick to measure your conclusions against.

    All this talk of fallen angels needs a little backing. The only references I can find to compare your ideas to are the Books of the Apocrypha, have you read any?
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    It's not actually entertaining to watch allegedly intelligent people put such effort into expressing their incomprehension. We even see an old Maher joke that was funny once, something like fifteen years ago.

    So let's try an easy one from the topic post:

    Start with the basics, James: Is there such thing as right and wrong?

    (Hint: The answer is either yes or no.)

    Meanwhile, the actual answer to the topic post is that 「to believe something is an angel does not require the existence of God」, but I also have a line about the Book of Job (ch. 38-41) that could be taken to suggest most people probably wouldn't parse it out so exactingly if the sky itself yelled back.

    It's just weird, watching people put this much effort into demonstrative disbelief.

    If you want a simple answer, consider how extraneous is the idea of a fallen angel. Here, I'll make it complicated: There is at least one telling of the story in which Mephistopheles was not cast down from Heaven, but, rather, jumped; he threw himself into solidarity with other fallen angels in protest of perceived injustice, that God should expel Satan for being, and fulfilling his purpose, as God created him. And even if the Mephistophelian error is the failure to recognize that fallen Satan continued to fulfill his role—(see also, Book of Job, chapter one)—the whole story is still absurdly extraneous.

    A more useful answer, I suppose, would have to do with what passes for "knowledge". But at that point, we're back to prior↗ discussion↗ about morality; "knowledge" is a risky word in dynamic application with uncertain boundaries.
    ____________________

    See also: #3179798/189 ("Science: Explanation versus obfuscation")↗, pertaining to this thread.
     
  19. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    1,434
    OMG. kx000’s archaic language went out with the Ark, yet it seems to be right up Tiassa's street. Tiassa's found a soul mate in kx000.
    Meanwhile in 2023...
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,237
    I believe that some hate-filled little man posted something tht mentioned me. I have no desire to engage with that individual, and will not do so unless and until said individual apologises publically for false and deeply inappropriate personal allegations he made in the recent past.

    However, I note that said individual tried to take me to task for not answering two questions that I actually addressed in a previous post, just a little further up the thread. Moreover, as is the habit of this individual, he also tried to insinuate the existence of dishonesty and ulterior motives on my part.

    This little man is fixated on me, and continues to add to his many lies. This man has no honour and does not warrant more than passing attention.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2023
  21. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

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    Right and wrong is contextual.
     
  22. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    Subjective too.

    If God exists then we would have a moral absolute, which means morals would be objective... perhaps.
     
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  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Being that this thread is
    1. posted in the Religion section, and
    2. talking about angels, then
    it goes without saying that God is assumed for the sake of the argument.



    (Meta-note: Talking about God and angels is qualitatively different from stating that, say, UFOs exist. It is possible to have a discussion about the self-consistent logic (or not) of God and angels, whether or not it actually attempts to objectively describe reality. That's not the same thing as saying "who is flying these UFOs"?)
     

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