the universe was created by an act of love.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by leopold, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    hmmmm . . .
    given your experiences i would like your thoughts on the thread title.

    this should be interesting.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Mazulu Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,090
    Amen.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    Meaninglessly vague as stated.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,091

    Love for whom?

    •A report of child abuse is made every ten seconds
    •More than four children die every day as a result of child abuse.1
    •It is estimated that between 50-60% of child fatalities due to maltreatment are not recorded as such on death certificates. 3
    •Approximately 80% of children that die from abuse are under the age of 4. 1
    •More than 90% of juvenile sexual abuse victims know their perpetrator in some way. 4
    •Child abuse occurs at every socioeconomic level, across ethnic and cultural lines, within all religions and at all levels of education.
    •About 30% of abused and neglected children will later abuse their own children, continuing the horrible cycle of abuse. 5
    •In at least one study, about 80% of 21 year olds that were abused as children met criteria for at least one psychological disorder. 13

    http://www.childhelp-usa.com/pages/statistics
     
  8. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    So better no children at all?
     
  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    Love was a later addition to the universe. It had to cool off quite a bit. Nothing that loves hangs out at 10 Billion degrees K.
     
  10. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,451
    Fire Elementals?
     
  11. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,092
    "Act of love"? Well, the Aztec goddess Coatlique apparently had a knife and a ball of feathers as lovers. And the rest of what happened in that creation myth sounds as warm and uplifting as Papa Jupiter's clan replacing the von Trapp family in the The Sound Of Music. IOW, the Aztecs seem to have had a fitting origin background for the character of this world.

    The mother of the Aztec creation story was called Coatlique (the Lady of the Skirt of Snakes). She was created in the image of the unknown, decorated with skulls, snakes, and lacerated hands. There are no cracks in her body and she is a perfect monolith (a totality of intensity and self-containment, yet her features were square and decapitated).

    Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant.

    Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever.

    The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe.


    http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#AZTEC
     
  12. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,091
    Is that what I said? Is that the only option available for a God--a universe of cruelty and chance or no universe at all? The OP says the universe was created out of love. What evidence is there for this?
     
  13. Mazulu Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,090
  14. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    The options (as they relate to children and cruelty) are children and the possibility for cruelty or no free will and nothing we would recognize as children (except in form). Your examples of cruelty are relevant to the problem of evil, and free will is the solution to that problem.
     
  15. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,091
    What about the free will of abused children. Does the freewill of the abusive parent override that of the child? Sounds like your "loving God" plays favorites...
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,728
    We are talking about a loving God that condoned teenage pregnancy by getting a teenage girl pregnant without her consent. Apparently that was a blessing the poor girl was to endure in a society that ideolised purity and virginity. Also a loving god that murdered the first born of unbelievers, just to show his power. Not even going to delve into the flood that slaughtered so many people. All out of love, apparently.

    Childhood fantasies that give children nightmares.

    Who said that? Where did he say that?

    If a mythical God created the universe as an act of love, then one would rightly question how a loving God can sit by and idly watch as millions of children endure pain and suffering no child should suffer and deem it necessary to prove free will. Love would be to ensure protection of a loved one. Not sit idly by while that beloved child suffers or is killed in the worst way possible. That is not love. That is indifference.
     
  17. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    In a closed system (i.e. no possibility for "favorites") that allows for free will, the strongest often prevails. The existence of free will does not guarantee the freedom of all conflicting wills at all times, merely the possibility of freedom.
     
  18. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,091
    Gee how nice. A "lovingly wrought" system that favors the powerful over the weak and vulnerable. Freewill for only the assholes who manipulate and lie and cheat and bully others into submission. Sounds a lot like a godless universe of no freewill to me. Who gives a crap about those 6 million kids abused annually?
     
  19. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    It was a false dilemma between suffering children and creation by a benevolent god. So given the premise of the OP, there was only one answer to that false dilemma.

    "Prove" free will? Who said a thing about proving anything? It is simply a matter of allowing the possibility for free will in a closed system that also accounts for natural evils (i.e. natural disasters).
     
  20. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    No, free will to allow good men to cooperate to in order to overcome "might equals right". Without free will there would be little sense in judging anything as cruel.
     
  21. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,091
    Yep..and then there's that most special bible story of all where the prophet Elisha was being teased about his baldness by a gang of kids and God sent out 2 bears to kill them all. 42 children total. What a mess!

    It really makes me sick to my stomach when I hear people gushing all about how loving and fair God is to humans. I can't imagine what those parents of the kids of the Sandy Hook massacre must feel like when they hear such insensitive tripe. Where was God's love on THAT dark day? Oh..that's right. God needed to sacrifice 26 innocent victims to honor the freewill of some depressed psychopathic teen with a twisted gun fetish. Freewill my ass..
     
  22. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
     
  23. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,091
    Yep..theists prove anything? Who would expect that? They don't need to show evidence for God and they certainly don't need to show evidence that the universe respects freewill. It's all good see when you believe whatever you want. Even that murderer who took the freewill away from his 26 victims gets his own freewill taken away by suicide moments later. So beautiful and poetic really..why it's almost as if the universe was created by an act of love.
     

Share This Page