Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, most human brains believe that they will go on thinking for ever. To overcome the obvious fact that brains have a limited life span these people conclude that thinking is not done by the brain, but by a 'soul'. This i conclude in nonsense! It is silly to conclude that thinking is done not by the brains but by the soul. It is a scientific fact that we think with our brains. The evidence is overwhelming. Just the rudimentary fact that physical brain damage can result in memory loss makes it obvious that memory happens in the brain, not to mention the thousands of experiments done with electrode probes and modern imaging techniques that have helped to map the various functions of the brain Does a mentally retarded person have a retarded soul and will hetherefore be retarded for eternity? God is the only manufacturer of souls, so when someone is born mentally retarded or someone goes insane did God make a flawed soul by mistake or was he just being malicious?
Blessed are you, doom, for asking these questions. You do have a soul. it is in the end that the stars will show you that time be revealed as a fleeting moments passing and the deeds of your life will pass before you and your soul will arise when the angels gently wake you and you will smile as love overcomes you to see before you that heaven awaits you A physical and/or mental disability does not make one less human. For that person still has a soul. Being born disabled, or becoming disabled later in life is of no matter. It is something only to be understood after your passing.
stray dog, Welcome to sciforums. The interesting thing about such assertions and those for gods as well is that they require absolutely no evidence. But then when Daffy Duck walks off the edge of a cliff he doesn’t fall until he decides to look down. In the world of the religious, just like the world of the animated cartoon, anything is possible, and both are just as fantastic and defy reasonable belief. The severely mentally disabled from birth incapable of communication with others, incapable of independent feeding and toileting, and incapable of choosing and recognizing religious concepts, has what purpose in living? If such a person has a soul then what value does the soul obtain from living such a vacant life? Does a soul have memory? Where do these memories come from? Presumably from the living experience of the physical world. If the person then suffers such serious brain damage that erases his/her entire memory then presumably the soul loses all that memory as well. If the person then dies then does the soul enter the spirit world absent of any awareness of who they are? Of course you could argue that the soul does not operate that way and that the souls does not acquire memories. If so then what is the purpose of life other than to obtain and learn and hence remember such knowledge and experiences? But no matter let’s assume the soul does not have memory. Now consider the person who suffers such severe brain damage that they become like the vegetable described earlier. Presumably what occurs in the physical world also impinges on the soul, assuming of course that it is the soul that is the real influence over a person and not the brain. If the soul now has no cognizant abilities and from above has no memory then what is a soul? We are already told that it is immaterial and invisible and now we can see it has no memory and no mental abilities. What then is left? Just like the fantasy that it is – nothing at all.
chris Now consider the person who suffers such severe brain damage that they become like the vegetable described earlier. Presumably what occurs in the physical world also impinges on the soul, assuming of course that it is the soul that is the real influence over a person and not the brain. If the soul now has no cognizant abilities and from above has no memory then what is a soul are you expecingt the soul to function normally if the brain is damaged? if you are missing a video codec on your computer, do you still expect to be able to view a movie. if your reverse gear in your car is broken. do you still expect to be able to move backwards? We are already told that it is immaterial and invisible and now we can see it has no memory and no mental abilities we have been told many things about the soul. however these are just assumptions that have not been proven. If such a person has a soul then what value does the soul obtain from living such a vacant life? purpose is irrelevant. if we cannot even conclusively prove a soul exists, why even speculate on its purpose. or rather, if we cannot formulate a reasonable explanation why a soul exists, that then, is proof that it does not exist? what do you think? be kind! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
these posts are making me take a hard look at organized religion... used to be an atheist, changed my mind later.. now im skeptical again... ahhhhhhhhhh.. why doesn't god just come down and lay all this to rest without riddles in different religious books...
A severly disabled person does have an important role in life. They are here to remind us. Do you appreciate your condition compared to theirs? Are you thankful for your own consciousness? If I were in a vegitative state, I would still influence others around me. Perhaps others would think of me on occassion and consider their own condition compared to mine. Perhaps others would appreciate life more after having seen my condition. Perhaps this would influence someone to be more kind. We must continue to study all of the human conditions in order to better understand our reason for being here on Earth at this moment in time.
Here is no why Is there any evidence of a soul? (besides blind faith in one) not really. of course there's no proof that you don't have one. but what about other living things? Dogs? Monkeys? Fruit Flies? and why is it there has to be some sort of cosmic reason/plan as to why we are here. could it be we just are, and that's it?
That is correct; there is no material evidence of a soul. So maybe we do have a soul, or maybe we don't have a soul. Everything in the universe, and every single human being, is born of the same Mother. That is, the Creation. That is the Big Bang. We are aware of this event, yet we do not fully understand it. We are aware of eternity, yet we do not fully understand it. We are aware of love, yet we do not fully understand it. It is incredible what we discover in science. We as humans have gained much intelligence about our natural world. We continue to investigate, and the scientific facts are our foundation for our advancement. There is so much more to understand. You ask the question: we are just here, and that's it? My journey thru life as led me to believe otherwise. It is the question of what caused the big bang. This single event has produced a time, a space, and an evolution. An evolution of our physical world and the creatures within it, an evolution of what we see in deep space, and an evolution of our own minds. As we continue to advance in our understanding of the sciences, we try to advance our understanding of ourselves. I have found so many clues to this question of the soul. Look at the math. Infinity is continous. Infinity is never ending. The possibility of infinity in a mathamatical sense is fact. Infinity. Eternity. Forever. Forever? It is possible that we have a soul. It is possible that we do not. I recall when I was so deeply in love. The relationship was something that I will always remember. She touched my soul. Yes it was emotional, as in the psychological sense of the mind. It was also something deeper. I am presently tranforming this event into words as best as I can explain in a paper I am writing. I can assure you it is difficult to describe, it was that deep. And what of this world we live in? The night and day, the change of the seasons, the yin and yang? If the opposite of life is death, than the opposite of death is life. You asked about the creatures... dogs, monkeys, fruitflies, etc. This offers us a diversity in our world as they are a bit more in tune with nature. The creatures are a bridge between the humans and the physical world. The mind is the bridge between humans and that pool of questions that we seek answers for. If one is to have an open mind, he or she may discover a clue as to the exsistance of the soul. There are many clues. The evidence is waiting to be found. Do animals have souls? I don't know. Do people have souls? I believe they do. I think the answer is in the math of infinity, and the revalation of the power of love.
This materialistic determinism in which everything in the world (including the phenomenon of consciousness) can be reduced to simple interactions on a physical/chemical level, belongs really to the nineteenth century scientific landscape. Nineteenth century science was founded upon a "Newtonian Absolute Physics" which provided a description of the world as an interplay of forces obeying immutable laws and following a predetermined pattern. This is the "billiard ball" view of the world - one in which, provided we are given the initial state of the system (the layout of the balls on the table, and the exact trajectory, momentum and other parameters of the cue ball, etc.) then theoretically the exact layout after each interaction can be precisely calculated to absolute precision. All could be reduced to the determinate interplay of matter obeying the immutable laws of physics. The concept of the "spiritual" was unnecessary, even "mind" was dispensable, and "God" of course had no place in this scheme of things. This comfortably solid "Newtonian" world view of the materialists has however been entirely undermined by the new physics of the twentieth century, and in particular through Quantum Theory. Physicists investigating the properties of sub-atomic matter, found that the deterministic Newtonian absolutism broke down at the foundation level of matter. An element of probability had to be introduced into the physicists' calculations, and each sub-atomic event was in itself inherently unpredictable - one could only ascribe a probability to the outcome. The simple billiard ball model collapsed at the sub-atomic level. For if the billiard table was intended as a picture of a small region of space on the atomic scale and each ball was to be a particle (an electron, proton, or neutron, etc.), then physicists came to realise that this model could not represent reality on that level. For in Quantum theory one could not define the position and momentum of a particle both at the same moment. As soon as we establish the parameters of motion of a body its position is uncertain and can only be described mathematically as a wave of probability. Our billiard table dissolved into a fluid ever-moving undulating surface, with each ball at one moment focussed to a point then at another dissolving and spreading itself out over an area of the space of the table. Trying to play billiards at this sub-atomic level was rather difficult. Quantum Consciousness
The Quantum Soul is derived from Quantum Physics, and is material in essence, even though the effect of it is spiritual. The material aspects of Quantum Soul control the soul itself, there is no "sky hook". Which means that Souls can exist, according to this theory, and no god is required. Those who believe in souls but not religion par se are drawn to this theory, and followers of Forteana, mysteries or the unexplained are dead excited about Quantum Souls. Most the individual elements of Quantum Consciousness are under dispute. For example most of the supporting maths behind the Interconnectivity of all things is doubted, dubious, with many other theories in circulation that if true do not permit Quantum Souls to exist. But nonetheless, the Quantum Soul theory is presently the best theory of soul that we have. Quantum Souls
Spookz, The specific observed quantum effect that is giving rise to this idea of quantum souls is minute. To stretch the effect to the idea of a massive controlling influence like a soul is out of all proportion. The observed effect was that under a very narrow range of conditions the result of an event could be observed before the event had begun. This appears to break the rule that nothing can exceed the speed of light. However, the most important point to note is that the vast majority, by an astronomical margin, of events are not controlled by quantum effects. Our entire universe based on our normal observations of cause and effect would be simply chaos, and that is clearly not the case.
Yeehaw If there's no evidence for the existence of a soul, Occam's Razor says not to assume there is one. As to the Quantum Soul theory, look at it this way: when people didn't understand the sun, it was a god. When people didn't understand magnetism, it was a source of good luck, good karma, and magical healing through "magnetic crystals." Now, people don't fully understand quantum physics, and so it has become the location of the soul, free will, and anything else you want to put in there -- being the one major aspect of physics we can't pin down, it is now the last reserve of pseudoscience. It's the one place you can get away with saying that there is a soul, because "we don't know that there isn't one, and we don't know the extent of quantum uncertainty." Obviously, I don't buy it. It makes a number of unreasonable assumptions, most notably: A) That there is a soul. Given this assumption, there's nothing left to prove. All you have to do is show how it COULD work, which is what is being done. The bottom line is that there is no reason to make this assumption in the first place (other than emotional reasons). B) That quantum effects work in concert. In other words, these theories ascribe a high level of order to things which are inherently chaotic. There is no reason to assume that OUR uncertainty regarding the position and momentum of a given electron can bring about such complexities as a soul, or phenomenal consciousness, or free will. This would be the equivalent of assuming that, since we don't know exactly what the structure of, say, a particular bar of soap is, it must be a computer. Not reasonable. C) That quantum physics allows for a non-mechanistic world. These theories always package their views with quantum mechanics and then leap to metaphysics when no one's looking. Just because we haven't explained a certain part of our mechanistic universe doesn't mean that the entire theory of a mechanistic world must be trashed. EDIT: Oh yeah, one more thing. D) That quantum effects percolate up. I don't know what the consensus is on this, but I'm not sure that Heisenberg uncertainty and such things actually cause chaos on a Newtonian level. Could definitely be wrong on this one, but I'd like to see the numbers.
spookz, LOL, aren’t I always? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But those are physical things. The soul is being portrayed as non-physical. I.e. if you damage the physical brain then that should have zero effect on the soul. In which case if the soul is the true controlling influence over a human and not the brain then a person should still function normally with considerable brain damage. Since this is clearly not the case then either the soul does not exist or is so completely dependent on the brain as to be indistinguishable from the brain. In which case what is the purpose of the soul? If the soul is to obtain any benefit from an earthly life then shouldn’t it be able to retain memories and knowledge from such a world? If it loses all this when the brain is destroyed then doesn’t that imply that it ends up with zero knowledge and memory? I.e. it’s entire experience of earthly life becomes null. Or are just fantasies that can never be proven. Yes I agree to a point, although a claim of proof is not appropriate. It is not a matter of proof but of credibility. As we learn more about how the brain works then the need to assign the unknown to an alleged supernatural begins to diminish significantly.
laotzu "Generally, chaos theory implies that many systems in the physical world (such as water turbulence) which seem chaotic in fact demonstrate complex and subtle levels of order once they are closely analyzed." "Not all systems in nature appear organised or have some pattern to them. Indeed many seem disorderly or ruled by random events. However some of that randomness might only be on the surface. Chaos refers to the property of some non-linear dynamical systems whereby they become extremely sensitive to initial conditions and display long-term aperiodic behaviour that seems unpredictable. Though chaotic behaviour might appear essentially random, there is actually hidden order, apparent only in "phase-space" rather in ordinary space. Furthermore, many chaotic systems show universality in their approach to chaos, giving one some predictive power. Thus discovering that some random-like events are actually chaotic means one has uncovered a simple determinstic basis for the system and so enabled its understandability. " Complex Systems thoughts??
"Physicists investigating the properties of sub-atomic matter, found that the deterministic Newtonian absolutism broke down at the foundation level of matter. An element of probability had to be introduced into the physicists' calculations, and each sub-atomic event was in itself inherently unpredictable - one could only ascribe a probability to the outcome." Unpredictable does not mean undeterministic. From our perspective it may look to be unpredictable or chaotic. But our perspective inherently has one major flaw- perspective. Perspective is infinitely limited and unimaginably bias. Fortunately, the nature of the Universe has no perspective. It does no prediction or calculation. It simply is what it is. It is deterministic in that it follows universal laws at all times. If souls do exist, then they are not above universal law(physics). Souls are basically just another form of brain. We have no reason to believe that souls do exist in us. I mean why would we need two brains anyway?
matnay We have no reason to believe that souls do exist in us the fact that people persist in believing despite the lack of hard evidence is reason enough for further investigation
spookz, the fact that people persist in believing despite the lack of hard evidence is reason enough for further investigation Investigation without preassumption. The idea of souls should not be the starting point. It should be the ending point, if it turns out to lead that way. As I said before, a soul is just another form of brain. I think the deeper question is not whether we have a second invisible brain, but rather, what is the nature of the brain that we KNOW we have. The grey gooey one attached to your body. That's the one we should investigate.
