Tidal energy accumulator - Feasibility?

[Quantum Quack]

Just for a bot of fun...to consider..

A simple system of converting tidal rise and fall to accumulated pressure.
Process in brief:
Using the tides to pressurize a chamber thus storing potential energy to run an electric turbine over time.

The tide rises generating air pressure, that is piped into a pressure vessel via a one way valve.
Over time and after the pressure reaches a given point the stored pressure can be bled off to run a turbine.
Of course the amount of storing has to exceed the use. [ over an extended time period - the accumulator chamber acting as a buffer to allow for slack and outgoing tides]
Only moving parts are the various poppet valves needed...

I wonder if feasibility studies have been carried out on this idea or something similar?
Imagine:
Millions of these tidal pressure engines , scattered around providing renewable energy at very little cost [ maintenance ] that over an extended period could be used to drive electricity generators.
Could be all under ground and eco friendly...
The system could also capitalize on the down cycle creating an accumulated low pressure storage.

 

[Russ_Watters]

Why bother with storage? Why not just run a generator right away?

 

[Read-Only]

I understand your thinking but it would be MUCH more effective to simply run turbines/generators BOTH times while the water is moving.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Why bother with storage? Why not just run a generator right away?

Because we have slack tide and tide out to accommodate.
The pressure vessel has to perform a buffer function..
[we are talking about vertical movement not horizontal movement] although the idea of a turbine utilizing vertical movement might work, but I doubt it.]

 

[Read-Only]

Because we have slack tide and tide out to accommodate.
The pressure vessel has to perform a buffer function..

Nope, just a lot of additional construction which is performing no function compared to my suggestion - which is working fine (for a long time) in the Bay of Fundy.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Nope, just a lot of additional construction which is performing no function compared to my suggestion - which is working fine (for a long time) in the Bay of Fundy.

bay of Fundy?

 

[Read-Only]

bay of Fundy?

Yep, check it out. Highest tides in all the world! and they've been using my suggestion for decades now. Forget the accumulator chambers altogether - a lot of expensive construction all for nothing.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Yep, check it out. Highest tides in all the world! and they've been using my suggestion for decades now. Forget the accumulator chambers altogether - a lot of expensive construction all for nothing.

so you think puting turbines in saltwater is some how comparable (in process )
to to simply using the rising water as a ram?

 

[Read-Only]

so you think puting turbines in saltwater is some how comparable (in process )
to to simply using the rising water as a ram?

Sorry, don't quite follow you on this because your less efficient idea uses saltwater also.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Sorry, don't quite follow you on this because your less efficient idea uses saltwater also.

How does the use of underwater turbines relate to the idea put forward in this thread?
Are you unable to determine the difference?
Do I need to draw better diagrams for you?

 

[Quantum Quack]

btw tidal mills and the like have been around for centuries.. The first significant tidal power plant in France was built in 1966. 240 mw with 24 turbines. [Rance].. supplying 0.012% of France' power demand...local enviro impact severe. relatively high maintenance.. blah blah blah... old news. see: wiki : tidal power

The idea presented in this thread is purposely designed to be in service with little to no maintenance for 100's of years. With nominal enviro impact and minimal capital investment requirements. Long term strategy to generate pressure in a sustainable, ultra low cost, non-tech and ecologically friendly manner. Salt water corrosion is a non issue as all pipes in the water could be ceramics etc. The entire "natural" pump unit could be buried under the sand on a beach for example with piping also buried leading to a collecting vessel. [ which could also be underground ]

One of the questions though is:
Could the infrastructure for a simple air ram generated by tidal rise and fall generate enough pressure strength over an extend time to deliver a steady and usable air pressure output from a large storage vessel that acts as a buffer.

 

[Read-Only]

How does the use of underwater turbines relate to the idea put forward in this thread?
Are you unable to determine the difference?
Do I need to draw better diagrams for you?

Of course not - they are utterly simple.

 

[Read-Only]

btw tidal mills and the like have been around for centuries.. The first significant tidal power plant in France was built in 1966. 240 mw with 24 turbines. [Rance].. supplying 0.012% of France' power demand...local enviro impact severe. relatively high maintenance.. blah blah blah... old news. see: wiki : tidal power

The idea presented in this thread is purposely designed to be in service with little to no maintenance for 100's of years. With nominal enviro impact and minimal capital investment requirements. Long term strategy to generate pressure in a sustainable, ultra low cost, non-tech and ecologically friendly manner. Salt water corrosion is a non issue as all pipes in the water could be ceramics etc. The entire "natural" pump unit could be buried under the sand on a beach for example with piping also buried leading to a collecting vessel. [ which could also be underground ]

One of the questions though is:
Could the infrastructure for a simple air ram generated by tidal rise and fall generate enough pressure strength over an extend time to deliver a steady and usable air pressure output from a large storage vessel that acts as a buffer.

Sure - but I cannot see the reasoning for reinventing the wheel. Yours is a dead idea.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Sure - but I cannot see the reasoning for reinventing the wheel. Yours is a dead idea.

Why is it a dead idea?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Of course not - they are utterly simple.

the process involved IS utterly simple. I could build it myself using a shovel, a few pipes, a garden hose and ..... .... an inflatable castle....
and I might add, on a more serious note, most impoverished 3rd world countries with access to tidal forces could also...

Could use it to pump up bike tyres or balloons for New Years Eve parties...or run my refrigerator keeping all the beer cold. [chuckle]
and... if done properly would save me about $2.50 aud per day [for the small refrigerator] , 365 days of the year for 300+ or so years... that's a whopping... $912.50 per annum.
at no running cost...

 

[Quantum Quack]

The thing to realize is that at very low cost we humans could be accumulating pressure [ thus usable energy ] over an extended time period in a sustainable fashion by using the rise and fall of the tides as an air pump.
Even if we were to accumulate a mere 100psi in large quantities this is essentially "natural or free" energy that could be used if applied in clever ways, to supplement existing systems, or ultimately replace existing systems of energy delivery [ coal, uranium, oil etc ]
The only limiting factor is "patience" as it would take a while [years] for the accumulated pressure to get to a point where it could be used sustainably.

@read_only, so why do you think it is a dead idea?

 

[Read-Only]

The thing to realize is that at very low cost we humans could be accumulating pressure [ thus usable energy ] over an extended time period in a sustainable fashion by using the rise and fall of the tides as an air pump.
Even if we were to accumulate a mere 100psi in large quantities this is essentially "natural or free" energy that could be used if applied in clever ways, to supplement existing systems, or ultimately replace existing systems of energy delivery [ coal, uranium, oil etc ]
The only limiting factor is "patience" as it would take a while [years] for the accumulated pressure to get to a point where it could be used sustainably.

@read_only, so why do you think it is a dead idea?

Because the return on the effort is so small.

Seriously, it's about equivalent to trying to heat a house by striking matches. The "both ways" approach I suggested is HIGHLY effective and is already generating megawatts across the world.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Because the return on the effort is so small.

Seriously, it's about equivalent to trying to heat a house by striking matches. The "both ways" approach I suggested is HIGHLY effective and is already generating megawatts across the world.

Please explain your approach?

Using simple straight vertical piping:
If I placed 1000 vertically arranged 6" dia pipes fixed to a pier or jetty with a total pump capacity of x per tidal rise (stroke) that is a total of x compressed air per tide at no running cost or maintenance.
Imagines : If a 50 foot tidal rise was being used as an air pump..(Bay Of Fundy)..[chuckle] Gosh that's a lot of compressed air generated...every day

 

[Kittamaru]

Quantum, Read Only, you are on two very different wavelengths at the moment I think...

Quantum, if I understand you correctly, you want to use the rising tide to pressurize a chamber of fresh water that can then be used to turn turbines as the tide goes out.

That, or you want to use the water rising inside the chamber to spin the turbines ( you seem to have presented two different ideas)

There is no real need for this; already, they have harnessed the motion of the tide via turbines that spin as the tide flows in and out along the shoreline. Essentially, it's like using the movement of the tide as it ebbs and flows in a way similar to the movement of water in a river turns a water wheel. Essentially, the same thing you are proposing, but horizontally instead of vertically, resulting in much reduced construction costs.


There are several proposed designs for this, from the standard windmill design:

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To more environmentally safe (for the wildlife) helix designs:

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Also, I'm not sure why this is in pseudoscience... I mean, these things are actually in use in some areas so... not very "pseudo" at this point

 

[Quantum Quack]

Quantum, Read Only, you are on two very different wavelengths at the moment I think...

Quantum, if I understand you correctly, you want to use the rising tide to pressurize a chamber of fresh water that can then be used to turn turbines as the tide goes out.

No, the idea was to use the rising tide as an air pump. As the tide rises the air in the vertical pipes becomes pressurized and that pressure is transferred via one way poppet valves to a storage vessel that acts as a buffer when pressure is bled off to be used to facilitate mechanical movement [ typically rotation ]

"Think" : using the vertical tidal force as an "air compressor"

That, or you want to use the water rising inside the chamber to spin the turbines ( you seem to have presented two different ideas)

No, the rising water simply pressurizes the air in the pipe(s) which is then eventually used after storage in a buffer vessel, to drive many things including turbines to generate electricity [ in the context of electrical generation] The compressed air could be used in other ways for example: to drive a pneumatic refrigerator pump also .. no electricity used.

The key to this design apart from it's inherent simplicity is that there are no moving parts, except for the poppet valves...
below is a slightly more efficient tidal air pump system:

to further maximize the compression of the air.
[the triangular shaped chamber is solidly anchored to the sea bed]

note : I posted it in pseudo science because I have not found this idea in use any where so it is "novel" and thus this fora is best for it to be developed. [discussed]



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