To all the people who are going to hell in a hand basket...

Flash,

"Much" for what? So that Skye might understand and choose to accept eternal salvation rather than eternal damnation?

I am spreading God's message as God called me to do, Flash. It is information given to us by God.

 

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To all pagans, non-Christians, &c.

My only issue in this is "Why are we taking part in this discussion?" Certainly the question had something to do with Jesus, but it's addressed to people who are "going to hell in a handbasket".

Don't we have to believe in their Hell before we go there? And what of the proverbial handbasket? I've got an old Schwinn somewhere with a basket on the handlebars.

Despite the Jesus aspect, I don't think this was aimed at us. The topic post seems to indicate it's for believers in Christian Heaven and Hell.

thanx,
Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

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tiassa,

In one of the threads about contradictions, Oxygen stated in a joking manner that he was going to hell in a handbasket. I believe that Searcher indicated that she was making the same trip... The title of this thread was a spoof of a spoof, so to speak.

C'mon tiassa, lighten up and join in the fun!

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Truestory--

Actually, I am. But I understand why you might not recognize that, since God has not written my standards of fun.

Relax.

--Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

Tiassa~

Hey, good point! Y'know, I have one of those old Schwinn's too! A blue one.

The reason I joined up this little thread...uh...crap. I don't know. Boredom, I guess.

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True'-

New teacher not an option? Okay, then I suppose I'd skip the degree. If I get a degree in absolute nonsense, what good could it possibly do me? I might as well sign up for one of those degree-mill type schools and get one a lot faster with a lot less hassle. The whole point of an education is to LEARN, not get some magical piece of paper.

Eternal damnation, huh? Well, I've heard "hell" is described as "separation from God" - if it's the Christian God that I'm being separated from, you won't find me tearing up over it. And if it's not the Christian God, then those rules are irrelevant.

Upon death, I look forward to having my energies randomized, and spread throughout this globe. I hope enough conciousness will remain that I can enjoy becoming a tree, a bolt of lightning, a dung beetle. I don't think it will, and that's where you'll find me tearing up. But it's inevitable, so I have nothing to do but live my life like each day is special, something to be enjoyed and treasured. I try hard to do just that. I take time each morning to think about how great it is that my back doesn't hurt that morning. If my back hurts, I think about how great it is my feet don't hurt. If my back and feet hurt, I think about how great it is that my knees don't hurt. Ad nauseum.

I'm nice to old people at the grocery store, I let people in front of me on the freeway. I feed my neighbors cats because I know she doesn't have money to do it herself. I pretend not to know that, though, and just 'sneak' the food into their dishes. She, in turn, pretends that I don't know either, and will say it's magic, even though she sees me do it. I pay my taxes and don't grumble about it. I stop for people on the crosswalk. I don't judge people for things they can't change. If this is for nothing, and I'm going to hell anyway...guess what?? NOTHING. I'm going to keep doing all of these things because according to MY rules, this is how one should behave. Not because I fear retribution, or Hell, or any other reason.

Moving right along...

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So belief in Jesus would take a lot of urges away from me? Well, so would smoking a joint.

 

Here's something that JUST NOW was emailed to everyone at my company.

DESIDERATA by Max Ehrmann
"Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become bitter or vain, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And wether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

And me again - Nice, huh?

 

Skye,

Remember... you are the one who turned it into nonsense.

It's God. Period.

You seem to be a very nice person, Skye and I appreciate your sharing the good things that you do for others. That is the way that Jesus taught us to live. On the flip side, can you share your sins with us?

No, not belief in Jesus, Skye... Acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior would give you a clarity of vision. Jesus Christ will show you the way to eternal salvation.

Smoking a joint my be fun, giving you a temporary, false sense of well-being. However, it also has a tendency to distort your perception of reality.

The high that one gets with Jesus Christ in their life is real and permanent.

 

Skye,
May I point out that all of the nice and good works that you do all are part of the message in the Bible? So you're following the laws of God, you're just not attributing the laws to Him, but to yourself, or the goddess or whatever.

Flash,
We've been through this discussion about a 1000 times, but you always want to take the perspective that God's laws are arbitrary. Simply made up so that we would have something to follow; to oppress or enslave somehow. These laws represent the key to peace and love and balance within our world and our society and universe for that matter. They foster the ideal state of existence for us. Not for Him; for us. How in the world can you have a problem with that? Just because you don't understand all of them? You should be able to at least start with the ones that you do understand, and find enough truth in there to keep you looking for a good long time. There are also a lot of Biblical principles that don't make as much or any sense if taken alone, in that they build upon other principles in assumption.

It really helps me to look at God's laws and sin, the effect of breaking them, as if they were like natural laws, and I do believe that this is true. It makes sense. There are natural laws at work all around us on this planet, and in this universe regarding anything physical in form. These laws in operation, and without interference or perversion keep the animals, plants, oceans, planet, solar systems, and universe in a state of equilibrium. What happens when we don't respect these laws and who made them? Take a look at the environment. Take a look at the giant hole in our ozone layer. Take a look at all of the species of plants and animals that man's greed is destroying at an exponential rate. Well, that's the same way I envision that God's laws work relating to our spirits as well. I equate all of the pain and sufferring and death in this world to pollution. It's the manifestation of sin, or upsetting the balance, or breaking the laws because we have NO RESPECT, and the reason why is because silly us, we think it belongs to us!!! The universe, the planet, the laws, our bodies, our fate. We mistakenly assume that these are all ours to claim for ourselves and use to satisfy our lusts and greed and egos. If we were to realize that none of that belongs to us but to God, things would be very, very different.

We think all this is ours? Well, we're not doing a very good job taking care of it. We think that WE decide what's right and wrong? Well it seems that we're not doing such a great job of that as well. I don't buy it. No way. It doesn't make LOGICAL sense to me.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

 

Truestory--

Would it be too extreme to wonder if we might have just seen a breakthrough?

You wrote: "It's God. Period." And this you wrote in response to Skye's thoughts about a "Christian God", as such.

Could it be that you've figured it out? That God can exist, and there is nothing wrong in calling God by a name. But God cannot have one name, else there is another that It is not.

Believe me, once you're dealing with this idea more smoothly, the number of things we find to disagree on will reduce drastically.

It sounds like progress ... forgive me if I don't sniff it to make sure it smells like progress, too.

--Tiassa

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

tiassa,

This statement was hard to follow... it seems contradictory to me...

Please clarify.

PS - Drop the attempts at insolence, would you? It's not attractive at all.




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 30, 1999).]

 

Truestory--

Don't cry

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, after all, you have the armor of God to protect you.

We've actually been through a variant of what you're asking before. Very simply, if you limit "God" to Father-Son-Holy Spirit, and the contents of of a one-volume anthology (okay, I'll give two volumes here) ... what of those things God is not?

But you've already dismissed that idea as insignificant and irrelevant. So I don't expect the question to make any better sense to you this time than it did last time.

--Tiassa

PS--Insolence? Once again you assume you know me better than I know myself. I'm starting to resent that arrogance. If you must know, it's probably the strain showing because I'm tired of wasting my time arguing insignificant side-issues that all come down to the same thing: That Truestory knows best. Insolence my eye.

PPS--I could start replying to everything you have to say with the same preposterous presumption you award others. Then we could just fill this board up with two-word posts. "Did not." "Did too." "Is not." "Is too." You've already revoked your license to cite history by dismissing it as insignificant to the present. What's next? Shall we dismiss medicine because it's irrelevant to Resurrection?

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The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

Lori, Truestory -

Of course - these are good things in ALL religions, and that's a great point I'd like to highlight.

In my opinion, religions are made in part to be 'social grease'. There have to be rules in ANY society, even "free" ones. In primitive times, there was no government to make laws, there was only a god, or many gods and goddesses, or spirits, etc. (which meant a priest/ess, shaman, medicine man, etc. as thir representative) to show what was right and what was wrong.

We all agree these are good things to do, right? So why is it hard for us to accept that just about any religion that lasts will incorporate these VERY basic social rules? These rules are the basis of most religions, in some form or another.

Lori, Truestory, I think you guys have the right to love and cherish Jesus, and worship your God, and pray and whatever else floats your religious boat. I think I have the right to burn incense and worship my God and Goddess and wave my athame around and whatever else floats my religious boat. Within reason, of course. Abiding by these social rules that we all agree are reasonable. Which is a big part of both of our faiths, right?

Those social rules are so basic - it's the Golden Rule, the Wiccan Rede...I'm sure there are many other equivalents that I'm not even aware of. Treat other people like you want them to treat you. That's what it boils down to, right?

Lori - why can't I take the credit myself? I am the one choosing to do them, right? I would certainally take the blame for a negative action, why not the positive? Don't you? I do offer thanks that I am lucky enough to be in a position to give. But if I did not give, would I stay in that position long? Difficult to say. A hard heart makes life difficult.

Truestory - you asked me to share sins...well you'll have to clarify that one. Do you mean sins according to the Christian rules? Or do you mean when I've broken my own set of rules?

There are some things I won't talk about, of course, but I dont' mind sharing minor stuff. There are also some shining times I won't share either.

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I'm sure you understand.

 

Truestory, and some more for you. That one was getting too long..

Nonsense...well, that's kinda how I feel about this "My god is the only god" crap. Sorry, it's starting to bug me.

I mentioned this before, let me try again.

There are several gods. One of them is your god, you call him God. One of them is my god, I also call him God. Just like when there is two boys named Timmy in the room, you might call them "Timmy C." and "Timmy R.", to tell them apart. When I am talking about God, how else am I supposed to clarify which of them I am referring to? Call them "Your God" and "My God"? Just let me know how you want me to say it.

And that's the NICEST way I can tell you to knock that arrogant crap off. Whoops, did I say that?

 

Tiassa-

If I might - by saying that God has more than one name, can I take that to mean that you think God has more than one appearance as well - perhaps all the Gods, Goddesses etc. are just facets of one thing, seen differently by different people?

Kind of a leading question,

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, that's very close to what I feel is at least A truth. Maybe not THE truth, but at least part of it.

 

If I may go back to the original question about what I would do if God and Jesus were the real thing, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me. God rules through fear, fear of sinning, fear of going to Hell, fear of being cast into the lake of fire. God is worse than Bill gates when it comes to tyranny. "Use my O/S or your system won't work", q.v., "Worship me or I'll tear your soul out and feed it to the demons".

If God was truly all-loving and all-forgiving, then what I believe in wouldn't matter because he'd forgive me anyway without retribution of any sort. If, however, he insists on punishing me, then he is no better than anyone with a vindictive mindset and is unworthy of my respect.

I've heard the bit about a loving parent correcting their child. But if God has no faith in me, or in his system if he believes I have reason to never return to the flock, then why should I have faith in him? If all I face is retribution and punishment when I go home, why go home?

I walk this world in my own way. I am decent and respectful to people by default. I try not to hurt anyone, and I help out where I can because I believe "If not me, then who?" If that's not good enough for God, he can kiss my ...

You get the picture. I'm sure this will offend the faithful, but remember I am not telling you not to believe in God. I'm simply saying that I am very disappointed in the empty promises which tell me that God doesn't exist.

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

 

Ilgwamh,

Talk about missing the toilet bowl.



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My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

 

Skye,

Before addressing your questions in my next post, please allow me to address the following first:

You state:

Now, considering what I know about our God, if I were of the same temperment as you, would I not be bugged by the following statement?

And, if I were bugged, should I then start flinging "crap" statements around about gods and goddesses?

I hope we can continue to participate in this religious debate without having to resort to "crap" statements such as the ones quoted both above and below and without lying to ourselves about how nice we are with statements like the following:

If that's the best that you can do, Skye, with the help of all the gods and goddesses, and despite your belief in the 3-fold return of karma, perhaps you'd better rethink your new-found religion.





[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 30, 1999).]

 

I was impressed by the quantity of posts I saw when I got home from work. I only wish I could say the same thing about their quality.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

 

Skye,

With respect to your question:

If you would not mind, please share: Specifically, under what circumstances you would consider yourself to have violated a religious or moral law or "rule" as you put it. If you have a specific set of rules, other than the generalized variation of "do unto others..." I would like to hear what those rules are.

Thank you.

 

Vinnie,

I think it must be the solar flares, perhaps coupled with the Y2K thing coming to a head all around the world. Seems like tensions are running at an all time high right now for just about all of us. Just a thought, albeit kind of a lame one...

Anyway, I'd like to wish folks somewhere in the world a Happy New Year. It's still approximately 24 hours away for those of us in the U.S. Let us know how it went - okay?

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