Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by CheskiChips, Jun 25, 2010.
He has to spend eternity in heaven with Sandy.
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I should be meaner to you, I'm not because you're so precious.
I know enough to understand how little I know.
When you arrive to this conclusion?
Or you have passed it?
Very well. I pity you for the dark demons that haunt you and make you pick stupid fights with atheists. Hold on a second, why am I even responding to this when "feigned" doesn't make sense as an adjective? What's a "feigned" soul supposed to be?
I didn't make that claim, did I? And why would the demonstration have to be mathematical? Indisputable can mean direct visual evidence as well, as in "beyond any reasonable doubt", unless you think your brain can't handle sensory input properly.
Value (in the context you use) is given to something by someone else. You can not assign yourself your own value with any meaning. Value is something assigned to you by someone else.
Theists possibly feel that they have value assigned to them by "God"... i.e. their God finds value in them.
Atheists like me think that they have value assigned to them by other people: my siblings value me, my parents did, my friends do etc. It needs no "God" to give me value, my workplace actually put a financial amount to the "value" they see in me etc.
But assigning yourself value is meaningless in that it has no frame of reference.
This is somewhat of a non sequitur.
Firstly, while you have argued that an atheist has no value, you have not argued that they have "no place" - and then the conclusion that they have "no purpose" just does not follow.
For example - what if their purpose is to find value and a place? The starting conditions you ascribe the atheist (no value, no place) therefore are the driving force behind their purpose (to find value / place).
So theists have a value, an inherent value, that is ascribed to them by a God that they will never meet, speak to nor confirm the existence of in their lives? Do you live your life in the vain hope that God will like you and confirm that you are valuable? That sounds depressingly codependent.
There are two simple answers from the atheist perspective and a lot of complicated ones. One simple answer is that we are egoists (not "egotists" mind you). We live because the present value of our expected future happiness and enjoyment (call it "u" with a u that is negative representing pains suffered in life and positive values relating to joys) is greater than zero, whereas the payoff from early suicide is an eternity of nothingness, so zero happiness and zero pain. Since:
Present Value Expected Payoff (Death) = 0 and
Present Value Expected Payoff (Life) > 0
we press on because it's better than the alternative.
The other easy answer is that expressed by the existentialists, that we must find our own meaning and even if life is objectively pointless the path of happiness is finding something that we find subjectively meaningful. As has been said:
Of course that answer is only easy at the 10,000 foot level, and is much more complex when you are in the weeds of the actual existentialists.
The prime minister of Australia is an atheist. Does she have no value????
Cheski,look what made me laugh today.
Just for Laughs is great, love their pranks. All done in Montreal. I still don't get how they're allowed to go around all the time, pretending to be cops with uniforms, police cars etc., pulling people over and playing pranks on them... but it's pretty funny to watch Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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That's because you ignored my fleet rank Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I actually command a vessel of my own, assigned to the important task of farming space jellyfish, a rare delicacy where I come from.
Not the pink spotted floaters, they are the beauty that explains the universe. Brown spotted jellyfish are nice wrapped in space kelp, especially slowly blanched on a bed of brown rice.
I think so...but does she, and why?
I didn't laugh.
Hey Cheski, when do you plan on answering my points? Ya know, about real world goals being worthy to be called 'purpose'?
have they been with you your whole life?(the someone else)..do they truly know your value or are you just listening to the ppl who know how to kiss butt?
he doesn't tell us that value..unless your willing to consider the value of another man dieing for us..(atheist too)
till they dont need you any more or you screw up..
although we as individuals have the ability to find our own worth,we as humans often over or underestimate our own worth
i only read the first few posts then jumped in here..but..i did not see where he said atheist have no value..he said atheist assign themselves no value..
why is focusing on our own value so important?
it can be argued that the hope is not vain,because of that guy that died for us..
i actually understood that..lol..
but i wonder how much of that opinion is modern thinking?..would that opinion exist in the early cowboy days? where happiness had a lower priority for existence, food would be at the top,( consider it was socially acceptable to not take a bath in weeks..)
it brings the question to how do we justify our own existence?
there is no one answer..
so that our lifes can have value? back to the who assigns us our value and why is it that important?
see thats why it is hard to seperate god from religion..ppl assume they are one and the same..
god is god..man made religion..god inspired humans..humans are not perfect..we make mistakes..we dont always get it right..we are susceptible to our own humanity..just cause one believes in god, does not make that person any less human..
and how much of the authority of our spiritual leaders have been given to them by our own value we assign to them?
do we question them or just assume they either know or dont know what they are talking about (what if they only have a clue, but fail trying to communicate such...)
what if we voted for our spiritual leaders? would the most effective be the most popular? effective with what? how would that turn out?
(1) We do - every time they pass the collection plate. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
(2) Yes, the most effective are those that fill the plate most.
(3) Filling the plate, of course.
(4) Quite like the status quo.
Put me down as a cynic when it comes to organized religion. I.e. it is clear what the purpose of organized religion is.
Fill plate, baby, fill plate.
Once in Mexico City, I watched a poor* old lady ascend the front steps of a large church on her knees. When she reached to top, she stood and went in and appeared to put a coin in the pray box. It was a beautiful church with large golden candle sticks on the alter. - How can I not be a cynic?
* Her dress was faded and frayed anyway.
That is to say; theists, by their own decrees have no inherent value. To the theist the value of a person is self-ascribed...but if the person who's ascribing the value has no value, then there's no credence to that value! It becomes an exercise in masturbatory futility. Obviously, if you have no value and no place...you have no purpose.
So theists, let me ask you...why do you keep on living at all?
- Is it to simply enjoy the next physical sensation in a never ending quest for ambrosia?
- Do you enjoy constructing emotions through intentionally placed ignorances?
- Does the struggle of giving another shmo with no purpose an equal chance to share meaninglessness drive you through life?
- Or are you just afraid to die?
Those things aside, are you an animal uniquely different and elevated above other animals? If you bite me...can I put you to sleep? Why not?
Just in general I'd like to hear from theists about how they struggle to find a reason to not end their lives when they've already determined internally they have no own purpose at all. Or, I would at least like to hear the delusions they use to convince themselves.
Same reason every life form does. To collect energy and persist.
I don't understand the question.
The question sounds very confused. I assume you mean subjective "meaning" (i.e. importance)... everyone can assign or be assigned meaning.
You sure to pick bizarre options.
Not legally. Humans have rules to govern each other and euthenasia is only available to life-threatening law breakers.
Again the question sounds very confused. Purpose is subjective and that means people can have any purpose they want. The only difference between an atheist and theist in this case is that atheists have one less life form assigning them purpose.
NEVER!!! Okay, I already did. I'm not going to go looking for it, it said something to the effect of..."Is succeeding in school your purpose in life?" Yadda yadda yadda, yadda yadda, yadda yadda yadda bodda bing bada boom.
So now that you have alluded to your post being somewhat farcical, if not completely so, could you enlighten us as to your true purpose here? Perhaps just rhetoric, but me thinks you have a somewhat deeper purpose - no? Was it jut surface?
Separate names with a comma.