To theists: How do you distinguish between reality and wishful thinking?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by greenberg, Oct 30, 2007.

  1. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    To theists:


    How do you distinguish between reality and wishful thinking?


    What are your criteria for making this distinction?

    How can you make sure that what you know as "God", truly is God, and not simply your projections and wishful thinking?



    I'm not asking this question in idleness. To give you my background - I was born into a Christian society and for a long time, I thought I believed in God. But eventually, I realized I wasn't sure whether what I thought was God, truly was God or just my wishful thinking, my fantasy.

    So I'm asking those who do believe in God -


    How do you distinguish between reality and wishful thinking?
    What are your criteria for making this distinction?
    How can you make sure that what you know as "God", truly is God, and not simply your projections and wishful thinking?
     
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  3. draqon Banned Banned

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    pinch yourself...this is reality.
     
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  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    It's not much different to people who "fall in love", is it? How do they know that they're "in love" and that it's not just "wishful thinking"?

    Baron Max
     
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  7. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    Simple...people who fall in love have some 'measurable' criteria. How good is the sex for example

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    Or to brass tax it...there's another physical, tangible individual to be in love with...
     
  8. sinaftersin Registered Member

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    Would you care to elucidate? :shrug:
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Being in love is a subjective internal feeling, so if a person feels like they are in love then they are in love. Since love is a simply a feeling, one only has to check whether or not they have that feeling, and if you do then you meet the criteria for being in love. Whether or not god exists is not a subjective internal matter. God either objectively exists, or he doesn't. Our internal feelings don't matter one way or the other.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2007
  10. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    wow your first post.... um creepy picture.
     
  11. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Please let the theists answer.
     
  12. draqon Banned Banned

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    its a troll of the thread starter.
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    But for the believer, the person who beleives that God exists, then God does exist. It's just like when you're "in love", you know it. It's exactly the same thing.

    If you feel like you're in love, can you prove to someone, objectively, that love exists? And it's even more difficult if that person has never been "in love". Go ahead, try to prove to someone that "love" exists objectively.

    Baron Max
     
  14. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    Well, this is the entire issue behind all religious debates. Many if not most theists claim that there exists an objective entity called god. You can believe in any subjective thing you please. The problem arises when theists erase the boundry between reality and wishful thinking and claim objectivity for this god thingy with no objective proof. And then follow that with arbitrary rules and regs they expect everyone to follow based on this subjective god thingy.

    And throughout history, to this very day, they've been not just willing, but overjoyed to kill those that don't follow their brand of god[sup]TM[/sup].
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    We look at the rationalists and realise there is no difference.

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  16. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    So you where a Christian and you think it's a product of wishfull thinking?
    You think the eternal lake of fire is wishful thinking?

    You think the tribulation, when followers of the Messiah Jesus will be persecuted and beheaded is wishful thinking?

    You think the world going through massive disasters such a famines and plagues and the most powerful earthquake in all human history is wishful thinking?

    Tell me what kind of mind do you have if you rejected The faith that teaches these things because you thought they where wishful thinking?

    Are you a masochist? Are you into pain and suffering?

    Wishful thinking... Give me a break.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  17. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    You have not answered my questions.
     
  18. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Hmmm lets see, created heaven and earth in seven days, virgin birth of it's son, lets men kill his son to redeem men's soul of sin, son walks on water, bread falls from the sky and feeds thousands, parts the red sea, Yea! that's pretty much wishful thinking to believe all that bull shit!!

    No volcanoes are quite real, however a lake of fire to punish those whom refuse to believe the buybull's god is wishful thinking, it's called a con job! Do as I say or else!
    Yea beheaded by other bastards who think their version of god is superior to your own, this not wishful thinking it's called human nature, my god is superior to your god, cause we kill more of your people, we are superior, it's a superiority complex always with you religious folks! Can't you co-exist with thousands of religions? Without trying to force each other's version of god complex?

    NO it's quite real take a class in geology it's called the nature of earth!

    The kind of mind that accepts reality through reason, logic, scientific inquiry and understanding of nature! Not mythology, superstition, and non-serquitus irrationality.

    Have you read your buybull?

    Isn't your god the masochist, that is actually into pain and watching the human race suffer? Did he not create evil in the first place?
     
  19. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    You whole question is built on a faulty foundation to start with.

    You say that my faith is based on wishful thinking and i am telling you that my faith contains beliefs that i would not wish on anybody.

    If i had a wishful thinking faith then God would be fluttering around with a magical wand granting every wish i desired and i would be living in some kind of willy wonker chocolate factory for a very long time.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  20. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    3,811
    If this was addressed at me -

    I did not say that. It is really mean of you to impute such things on me.


    That is your wishful thinking, not mine.

    My wish is that God will help and that there is a heaven and that I will qualify for it. But it's just that - a wish, and I might spend my whole life not knowing whether it can come true or not.
    If it doesn't come true, this will mean I have wasted my life, wishing for something that didn't happen.
     
  21. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Why would believing in any of that be as a result of wishful thinking??

    Do you think i wished that a God existed that created the world in 7 days? I could not give a brass razzo how long God took to create the world.

    Do you think i wished for a faith that has its Messiah born of a Virgin?? I could not care how the Messiah Came into the world. Maybe if He came down in a blazing ball of white light with a spectacular sound show,, yeah maybe that would be wishful thinking.



    So you are saying that i wish others to spend eternity in the lake of fire. No way do i wish for anyone to spend eternity in the lake of fire. I wish that everyone could be saved from the lake of fire and that no one would spend eternity there.


    I can co-exist with people of other religions in peace. My faith tells me to love even my ememies and not to take part in violence and killing towards others. So the problem does not originate from My faith but from their faith's that allow violent action and persecution to be used as a tool for world domination.



    God had a choice when man came to the knowledge of Good and Evil. He could have said, I will not allow evil in my creation therefore i will exterminate humanity destroy this tainted creation and start anew with a new creation.

    Or He could have done what He did, tolerated evil for a time while He worked to set in place the mechanisim to salvage mankind from the disaster they found themselves ensnared in.

    It is only by the mercy and longsuffering of God that you exist and have the opportunity to be restored to what He willed us to be in the first place.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  22. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Well let’s quote what you said shall we.

    Here you state that you Christian faith was just wishful thinking a fantasy. You rejected your Christian faith because you decided that the Christian faith is a result of wishful thinking, a fantasy.

    Therefore by your judgement all people who hold the Christian faith are deceiving themselves with wishful thinking/ a fantasy.



    Did i ever say it was your wishful thinking??????? No... So why even make this comment as if i did???



    Well for me qualifying it's easy. I believe the Messiah Jesus so i qualify. End of story. No need to spend my life wondering.

    And as for wasting ones life? Tell me when you where a Christian did you go to school? Did you have friends? Did you have fun? Did you love others and where you loved?

    How much different is your atheist life compared to your life as a Christian?

    This whole line of thinking is deluded. Christians live their lives just as fully as anyone else. But with a sense of peace and calm reassurance that many others never know.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007
  23. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    1,888
    These are good questions, but everyone should spend some time with them. What are your answers to those questions?
    For example around
    The Self's Continuity Through Time - a belief anti-theists tend not to be botherd by.
    The Existence of a Self
    Free Will

    In any case...
    I've spent a lot of time doing what could be called introspection or meditation. In addition a tremendous amount of exploring my own psychology, the psychology of other, the relationship between thoughts and emotions and related areas. This was 'hands on' and intellectual exploration, much of it with other professionals. In this process I noticed more and more often that I could feel/notice when I made jumps because of how I wanted something to be - inside myself, in others, in 'reality' - and when I was not making this kind of jump.

    Most of my beliefs are made based on a combination of intuition, rational thought, experience and an exchange between these. Rationalists tend to think you can somehow avoid intuition, but this is not the case. If I notice over time that there are places where my belief is held up by the leaps I mentioned above, then that is an area I explore in myself. I trust my ability here.

    God has been too smart. And then there is also the feeling that goes with the communication.
     

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