Turn the other cheek or practice self-defense.

What if it was part of Gods plan to create beings that where capable of becoming imperfect. What if that was part of Gods perfect plan. See your logic is getting in the way again Cris.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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Cris you do not understand. The Bible tells us that when Jesus returns He will wage war and kill His enemies to avenge and protect His people. That does not change his will that we should not wage war. We are here to give the Gospel message and to save people not to kill people. We are not Gods warriors we are His ambassadors of grace.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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Adstar,

Well certainly that is the Christian rationalization. But then he has to jump through hoops, with sacrifices and lots of pain and suffereing so he can kil a lot of people to end up with a perfect set at the end.

Logic suggests that if he really wanted perfect beings and being omnipotent and the designer, why the heck didn't he do it right in the first place? There is no fault in my logic.

 

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Adstar,

Well sure that was my early perspective of Christianity when I was a kid - so can war be justified by Christianity if it is self-defense?

You and C20 do not appear to be in agreement on this.

 

Woah! Hang on a minute Cris. Where have I said 'take up arms' ??? Or are you just trying to divide Christian opinion by falsely misrepresenting my words?

c20

 

C20,

Is not the Exodus reference support for self-defense? Does this not extend to defending one's country? The same reasoning should apply - if one is attacked then one should not feel guilty at bloodshed - if your country is attacked then why would it be any different if there is bloodshed.

Now I'm fine if you state clearly that Christianity is against war. But that's not what either of you are saying yet.

 

The Exodus reference is designed to set free an individual's conscience if they feel guilty for killing another person who was trying to rob them without premeditating that robbers demise. It is not a call to pro-actively go and seek out all would-be robbers and put them to death!

Jesus is quite specific in his advice to Christians regarding war

Mark 13

7. When you hear of wars and reports of wars do not be alarmed; such things must happen, but it will not yet be the end.
8. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes from place to place and there will be famines. These are the beginnings of the labor pains.

Jesus is saying 'Wars will happen but as for you, do not be alarmed.' , quite clearly making a distinction between His followers who may be alarmed at hearing news of war and those who would make war. Jesus wants Christians to focus on their relationship with God first and to put their trust in God first. Now this advice is to everyone. If everyone followed it there would be no war, but clearly many have rejected Christ's teachings and they will fight over money and land and all things that satisfy the flesh.

If someone slaps me on my face they are hardly making war. It would be a personal rebuke against something I have done or said. If my conscience is clear, I can demonstrate that by offering my other cheek and showing the other person that I do not believe I am in the wrong and that their act is far worse than anything they accuse me of.

If an individual threatens me by breaking into my house and they have come unprepared to deal with me that they came to steal from, I have every right to restrain that person and call the police. I am unlikely to use a knife or a gun but I am likely to 'strike' a blow to disable the thief. If I accidentally kill that person by trying to restrain them then the bible says that I should feel no guilt. In fact it is very rare in law that a person would be prosecuted for manslaughter under these circumstances.

If the thief is prepared, then he will overpower me and steal whatever it was he came to steal.

But as for me, I will seek God's will and not concern myself with war. Having God's ear is the best form of self-defence in the first place in my experience.

peace

c20

 

Quote Adstar:
“God can end the life of any one He wants whenever He chooses. He has perfect judgement. God deemed that all men would suffer death after Adam and Eve obtained the knowledge of Good and Evil, so in fact God has put us all humans under a death penalty.”

* Thus it is ok for your god to be a murderer. Ah, the sublime logic of Christian faith. What’s that smell?

 

Quote c20:
“‘If you accept that God owns the clay from which we are made, then who are we to tell the potter what he can or cannot do with his clay.”

* Although I appreciate your response, all you are doing is echoing Adstar. You are saying god is allowed to murder, because he is god. Forget the explanation, regarding contemporary politics. With tears in my eyes I ask you, why slaughter the friggin livestock? Funny … that smell is still around.

Quote c20:
“Those who put their trust in him are not put to shame.”

* The firstborn never got the opportunity to put trust in ANYBODY. Sad that.

 

Jenyar,

"Governments go to war, not individuals (if you understand what I mean)."

* Are you echoing Adstar and c20?

 

It's probably bitterness. God created life, and even though someone dies and returns to dust (whatever the cause), he is not yet dead in God's eyes.

We call being dead to God "hell", and that's what God would save us from.

 

If you mean that it's God who wages war on earth, no, I don't believe that for a moment. My position is that war is a consequence of sin, and it's much more complex than "will we do it, or won't we". Speak to any american now, and he will probably oppose the war in Iraq. Yet when you look at the news, we see America at war in Iraq. The difference is clearly not made by individual opinions.

I'm echoing these words:

Luke 17:2
"Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

Mat 18:7 "How terrible it will be for the world because it causes people to sin! Temptations to sin are bound to happen, but how terrible it will be for that person who causes someone to sin!"​

God knows exactly where the blame lies and who to hold accountable. But we shouldn't fool ourselves. There is already war between sin and righteousness, it just doesn't always emerge on a national or global scale. Whether the CIA shoot the hijackers at the airport, shoot down the planes before they hit, or destroy their cells in Afghanistan and Iraq, war is being waged whether you're aware of it or not.

Opposing sin by turning the other cheek is a tactic for handling conflict - it's not a recipe for avoiding it. There is pacifism and then there is denial. It's not individual who gets to enforce justice, but those appointed for it. Shutting down the Government, the CIA, the police force and the UN because individuals "shouldn't make war" suggests, for me, living in a fantasy world that doesn't exist. We don't live in a world where sin disappears because we don't like to enforce justice. You might as well say "we shouldn't judge" and fire all judges and disband all courts.

God required justice just as much as He required mercy. We shouldn't have one and neglect the other. I think the same applies to pacifism: we can't show Christian tolerance while we allow injustice to escalate unchecked. Jesus never denied that sin is a reality that would have to be dealt with in practical situations, or that people would sometimes be completely surrounded by sin and temptation. But He pronounced judgement over the perpetrators, and had compassion for the victims. In my thinking, a soldier is just as much a victim of war, and a policeman the victim of crime, as the people they are trying to protect.

But war is hell, and it will only ever be conquered when those who have least reason begin to turn the other cheek, to suffer a little injustice so that peace might have a chance - like death itself was conquered when Jesus chose to suffer injustice, rather than fight to preserve his dignity and authority in a sinful world. That way, He achieved a victory and glory much greater than a sinful world could ever allow. It's when people are faced with evil that they show their true colours:

Rev 13:10
If anyone is to be taken captive, he must go into captivity. If anyone is to be killed with a sword, he must be killed with a sword. This is what the endurance and faith of the saints means.​

 

Well if you are accepting that it is God who kills the firstborn, then you must also accept that it will be God that judges the firstborn. In fact if you are accepting that God exists (I know you arent but for the sake of argument) then you must also accept that God is sovereign over all. Since the firstborn were killed to force the Egyptians to let the Israelites go free after many years in captivity so they could go and worship God, it is clear that God requires man to seek Him first. Not suprising that the creator would go to such lengths since it was His will that the Israelites be free.
As Jenyar has said, God doesn't view death as you do. Jesus' resurection was proof that God has the power over both life and death. This is His creation. Again who are we to tell Him what he should do? Let us ask rather for eternal life and be assured of His promises to us through Jesus Christ.

peace

c20

 

c20,

Thanks for your response. I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye. The only answer a Christian can offer when faced with the actions of a cruel and senselessly bloodthirsty god, who petulantly wipes out his creation at a whim, are the standard:

“God doesn't view death as you do”

“Again who are we to tell Him what he should do?”

“then you must also accept that God is sovereign over all”

“Not suprising that the creator would go to such lengths since it was His will that the Israelites be free.”

* These are all feeble justifications for what is patently unacceptable behaviour. In other words, no answer at all.

Jenyar,

“God created life, and even though someone dies and returns to dust (whatever the cause), he is not yet dead in God's eyes.”

* So the pain and anguish of violent death matters none? This mysterious “all good” god of yours is truly unfathomable. Have you ever seen mortal pain? Why would that pain be different to a “firstborn” dying slowly with a spear thrust through his lungs?

 

It matters as much as life itself. But at the same time it doesn't make all the difference, because there is more to "life" than being alive and dying peacefully.

There is a book by author Philip Yancey and doctor Paul Brand called "The Gift of Pain" which you might want to read. Dr. Brand works with leprosy patients. These are people who can feel no pain. And their lack of pain makes them no different than someone dying slowly with a spear thrust through his lungs. Why? Because neither kind of death is their end, and the amount of pain suffered has no effect on what their life is worth.

So: death is not minimized - not in the least, because life is of immeasurable and eternal worth to God - but it's sting has been removed (1 Cor. 15:54-55).

As long as you believe in a God who takes pleasure in people's suffering and pain, you won't be able to see eye to eye with any Christian, because that's not the God we believe in and have come to know. We believe in the God who said:

Proverbs 17:5
If you make fun of poor people, you insult the God who made them. You will be punished if you take pleasure in someone's misfortune.

Ezek. 18:32 I do not want anyone to die," says the Sovereign LORD. "Turn away from your sins and live."

Ezek. 33:11 Tell them that as surely as I, the Sovereign LORD, am the living God, I do not enjoy seeing sinners die. I would rather see them stop sinning and live. Israel, stop the evil you are doing. Why do you want to die? ​

 

War for Christians is not justified under any conditions.

C20 is free to believe what C20 believes. I do not talk for C20 and C20 does not talk for me. I cannot recall any professed "christian" on this site that i have fully agreed with on all points of faith.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days.

 

Well yes. But He is willing to jump through those hoops to forfill His will.

That logic suggests that a God would only want to create beings incapable of being imperfect. Your logic is saying if God is perfect then He can only create perfection because creation is not perfect therefore God is not perfect therefore God does not exist or God is not a true God.

You Logic is restricted by your ideas on what a God would be and do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

Adstar,

But why when he doesn’t have to?

 

adstar,

Then why do so many Christians take part in wars? Would you say they aren't really Christians?

 

matthew
Chapter 22

36 "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?" 37 He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."