What is the difference between a vaccine using RNA vs DNA?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Dennis Tate, May 9, 2021.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,343
    If people are seeing relapses, then vaccines are far superior to natural immunity.
    Right. That's an advantage. The spike protein is the one part that the virus CANNOT change without becoming less infectious.

    So natural immunity might render you immune to an epitope of the virus that is inconsequential. A simple mutation can change that epitope, and the virus will be just as infectious - and you will have no immunity.

    Spike-targeted vaccine immunity cannot be defeated unless the virus changes the spike protein - and at that point it will be less infectious.
     
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  3. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    Ist immunity from natural infection also depend on severety of infection whereas dose from vaccine is well calculated. However I do not understand, in view of vaccine quanity or in view of need for adaptive memory to be developed, how dose from natural infection can be less?
    More over as of now, we are able to understand more sbout outcomes from natural infection but should be still learning practical experisnces from vaccines as of now being came later. ReInfection and casualities are also faced after both doses of vaccination here.
    I am yet to be sure if immune protection from natural infection is of multi protective level and may take care few more variants though less robust whereas from spike protein based more robust but limited to covid 19?

    As above.

    I do not think, any of the anti or immogrnic part of virus is just inconsequential. Probably we have seen more prominent parts but not yet less prominient parts. Later, we shall come to know. Now we can try looking it by looking other classical virus, if their other parts are also immunogenic snd provide some immunity or not.
    Btw, how can you compare covishield(a viral vector based) and Covaxin(a whole inactivated vitus based) vaccines?
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,343
    Natural immunity generates immunity to any epitopes that T-cells find. They are effectively random. It could be a critical protein (like the spike protein.) It could be a random protein that that virus expresses. It could (rarely) be a protein that is so similar to an endogenous protein that it elicits an autoimmune response; that's how you get lupus, for example. The system usually works.

    So if you get a mild infection, perhaps your immune response targeted a random viral protein that changes all the time. In that case you have very little immunity. Perhaps it chose a protein that is important in viral reproduction. Then you have immunity until it mutates. Perhaps it chose a protein that is critical to that virus - then you have a fairly durable immunity.

    Vaccine-elicited immunity, in contrast, generates immunity to a specific epitope that researchers decide is critical to the virulence of the virus. They chose the spike protein for the mRNA vaccines. Looks like they chose well.
    That's a great idea! Perhaps we could study viruses to figure out how they propagate, and devise methods of quickly analyzing them and producing vaccines to counter them. We could even establish a government organization, call it something like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to implement what we learned. If we were ambitious, we could even form an organization that operated all over the world! We could call it the World Health Organization or something.

    You should get right on that!
    Most RNA in viruses is secondary RNA. It does not code for virus specific proteins. This consists of either:
    -Structural RNA, which plays a (non-coding) role but is so similar to other endogenous RNA that an immune response to the proteins it codes for would rapidly kill you, or
    -Junk RNA, which are remnants of earlier versions. These don't persist very long because, being noncoding, they are easily mutated without effect on the virus.

    If you generate an immune response to either of those products, it either does not confer much immunity or causes a nasty autoimmune disease. Fortunately, 99% of the time you just end up with a weakened immune response.
    ?? I am not saying they are equivalent. Did you think they were? Adenovirus-based vaccines, mRNA-based vaccines and inactivated vaccines are three different kinds of vaccines.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    6,830
    any allergic reactions had, or not had
    by any individuals or small groups, should not influence your personal investigation into your own health conditions to know what has a more probable best log term benefit for you.

    i have had personal relationships with a few people who a normal vaccine can almost kill because of their personal medical conditions(allergies & immune system),
    and they are normal work life functional people who would walk right past you on the street without a second thought

    the vaccines that are referred to as not new
    are decades old

    they were designed as base line defense against global biological weapons
    [there is nothing for me to gain by me telling you any more information about this specific subject, cutting edge medical research also wont benefit from my telling you anything either]
    that doesn't mean covid is a biological weapon
    it also doesn't mean covid is Genetically Engineered
    it also doesn't mean the vaccines are a weapon
    it also doesn't mean covid was inside labs being developed as a biological weapon

    its a bit like that saying
    "walking out & getting hit by a buss" as a logical random possible dangerous event to an otherwise low risk normal life or day

    yet how many instances do you see in the media of someone being hit by a buss when they are crossing the road ?
    almost none

    there are far more technically challenging social political religious issues that come before vaccines

    why vaccinate people why will only continue to spread & incubate the virus ?
    it is counter productive to developing vaccines

    why waste massive resources on expensive top quality vaccines when you may need to pour billions into a new vaccine type in a year or soo when you can instead just shut your borders

    what is the real statistical risk ?
    who is at risk
    what are they at risk of
    where is the money
    whos money is it
    how much vaccine can be produced
    who owns it
    who owns the ingredients
    who owns the factorys
    who owns the transportation system

    which religions & what % of the population(& countrys/cultures) is opposed to medical science research ?

    rushing a vaccine = ?
    how long do you do human trials for ?
    who is volunteering for human trials ?
    how long have they been getting tested for ?

    what is a human trial ?
    why are they not testing it on animals first, after all dont most humans consider themselves to be more important than the food they eat as animals ?

    what is an average time scale for other vaccines developments to deliver human trials prior to public certification & global distribution
    opposed to experimental vaccines in poor countrys

    there are soo many questions that can be asked
    but not many want real logical sane scientific answers
    they just scream "show me the money"

    science doesn't give a shit about the money
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  8. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    966
    This appear quite fair. However this is quantitative analysis of immunity. Means, whatever part of virus is most immunogenic will produce more immunity. But can't there be a qualitative angle? Means, other parts of lesser immunogenic parts of virus produce different kind of immunity due to which immune protection may be having some multiple angle. This angle may be checked for getting variants or not.

    We may need to wait and watch to know final outcome bit later.


    Apart from RNA and apart from spike protein S, virus also had many other proteins, N, M, E etc. Why can't these be immunogenic?

    Yes these are different. These are also different from natural infection. Therefore only, we need to understand these more. I think, conventionally, there were only just one type of vaccine against any infection. But this time since there are many and also few comparatively new, we have to see more.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    24,062
    Cut the Trump level BS.

    On the contrary, those doctors have made a mint peddling rubbish to the masses of tinfoil hat wearing idiots. There is no scientific backing to their claims.

    Bridle is discrediting the vaccines because he accepted a grant to develop his own vaccine with the same "spike protein" he is making false claims about the current vaccines..

    He's another Wakefield. Discredit current vaccines to boost his own brand of vaccines.

    https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/news/covid-19-vaccine-research-u-g-awarded-provincial-funding
    https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/ontari...rch-funding-to-university-of-guelph-1.4948998

    I specifically and repeatedly told you to stop linking these anti-vaxxer type links and to stop making stupid unfounded claims.

    And you respond by posting a link to a non-scientific article making spurious and incorrect claims to push an anti-vaxxer agenda.. In the middle of a pandemic..

    Unfounded woo anti-vaxxer claims..

    Despite being told to stop repeatedly, you just keep peddling the same dangerous disinformation and keep linking conspiracy websites that's spreading even more disinformation and fear mongering.. In the middle of a pandemic no less.

    As a result of accrued infraction points for posting woo, you are now on a short ban from sciforums.
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  10. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,830
    tongue in cheek & speaking very off the cuff


    i am floating through thoughts of comments i might like to question and trying to think of what to say versus what not to say...
    and it left me a question

    what amount of people who claim to be science professionals are sales managers who have had ghost writers and other people sitting their exams so they can purchase a science degree to be able to get credit to run a company by one of their family friends etc

    • is there such a distance between the real scientists and those running the private for profit science companies ?

    the majority of those working in those science company's are not scientists
    • is the decision making process dominated by sales manager types looking to make profit rather than profit from science

    a topic no one from either side of the debate will want to discuss i am sure

    on 1 hand its all tax payer money being spent to purchase off private companys looking to keep that tax payer money coming in and validating it
    noting not talking about insurance companys owning access to consumer medical choices in the usa(oxymoron of consumer culture capitalism gone horribly wrong)


    WW5 might be the corporate battle between private science company's
    ww4 global cyber war(currently in action)
    ww3 is economic & trade & resource ownership war (still happening)

    keeping in mind any tight knit inwardly breeding diet constrained group will have specific & unique outcomes to various drugs medications & processes.
    what is the blood quality and type of these Israelis ?
    how healthy are they ?
    what amount of blood circulatory exercise do they have on average ?
    what is their collective heart health & existing stroke risks etc & genetic inheritance of genetic disorders

    using any data out of any localized group must have relative frames of reference
    like saying your going to test all the vegans and then use their results to define medication values for red meat eating low exercise inner city living people.
    it would not only be very foolish but professionally and scientifically dishonest

    regional local & collective health & genetics must be calibrated with all medications
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  11. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    966
    There should be no issue in acceoting it. Natural infection vs vaccination is number game. In specific infection protection, in getting variants, in getting irreversible long term manifestations etc. Obiously these numbers should be less in case of natural infection but substancial ly higher with vaccination. Let us expect and pray, nothing very odd (variant, manifestation) come in future and things just limit to higher protection in higher numbers.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,343
    But again, that will generate immunity against anything with that antigen. If it's part of a noncritical protein expressed by the virus, then your immunity will not be very durable, because noncritical proteins change much more rapidly in new strains.
    ?? All of them are immunogenic.

    I think you're losing the plot here. Viruses generate a lot of proteins when they infect a cell. Some are critical to their functioning (like the spike protein.) Some are not so critical. Some are not important at all. You want to become immune to the critical proteins because the virus can't change those easily, and they can't change those without significantly changing their infectiousness.

    You can generate acquired immunity to most proteins a virus produces. But again, some are better than others when it comes to the ones you want to be immune to.
    Well, an adenovirus based vaccine is still a regular old infection, just introduced via a different method.
    Do you think that no one understands them? Or that there has been almost no research done into viral infection and vaccine creation?
     
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,830
    more bad results comes from more rolls of the dice
    more rolls of the dice is done by allowing it to spread

    we are biological machines
    we rely on protein
    all life forms run on protein

    corona virus has been inside animals for hundreds of thousands of years
    only inside human animal mix for maybe 50,000 years
    but now inside heavy big mix in wet markets and urban sprawl and farming

    so makes 50,000 years become maybe 10 years

    but people wont agree to share basic food & housing
    or stop breeding like rats & eating poo & swimming in their own poo while breeding like rats
    eating poo
    spreading poo
    swimming in poo
    breeding like rats in poo on a sinking ship

    the ship is sinking
    & they are still breeding & spreading poo
     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,830
    usa sci-fi movie (how close is this to reality?)

    1. any gun for vaccine straight trade swap
    1. new gun for family vaccine pack
    • 2 adults 2 children vaccine family pack swap for new gun



    Today only
    free 1 day food ration family size voucher for any new gun with any type of hand gun vaccine family pack
    includes free booster self jab pack for 1 adult & 1 child today only while stocks last
     
  15. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    966
    Thanks for telling me all this. In short, I think, you are telling that spike protein of virus is most immunogentic, so vaccine making it as target will be most effective esp against that virus. Virus also express other proteins but they are not so immunogenic so no sense of making these as target. But these were also making some target in vase of natural infection or whole virus based vaccines. So can this immune response and immune protection be something different in quality not just in quantity? I mean, can we get some different antibodies or TCell training from immune response against these other proteins so that we get some kind of cocktail of antibodies or Tcell memory?

    As I written above, we are concerned with it to know better because, it will just be s number game for natural infection vs vaccines i.e. increased nos of specific protection, variants, long term irreversible manifestations etc. Since we are yet learning and observing daily chsnges in covid, we need to look it better. Both enens and odds can happen in case of natural infection and vaccine but touch wood, if odds esp ADE related happen, numbers will be much more due to vaccination than just due to natural infection. Moreover it will be long term irreversible manifestation in more numbers.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    24,062
    Jesus Christ, are you aware of how that comes across?

    And I would assume (and hope) he meant that Israeli's have a high vaccination rate among their population when it comes to COVID.

    Probably similar to any other westernised country.
     
  17. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    966
    I think, we(science) are still learning on Covid. Nothing is final. Moreover science usually anticipate nothing can be abosolute and
    final in it. It is one kind of process and new thing keep on adding, changing and deleting past things. We simply should be careful in its long term irreversible manifestations if those are in mass public and if those are not reversible immediately esp when multiple considerations exist. Quite logical.
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,343
    Did you mean immunogenic? No, a lot of the proteins expressed by COVID-19 are quite immunogenic; they produce a strong immune response.

    The challenge is to choose an epitope that cannot be easily changed by the virus.

    I've tried to explain this a few different ways, so let's try an analogy.

    Let's say you are trying to defend your castle from evil sorcerers. They attack with their magic wands and kill your soldiers and blast holes in your walls. You notice that sorcerers tend to wear blue robes so you tell your troops "shoot anyone who wears blue robes!" The sorcerers figure this out in about ten seconds and start wearing red robes. You lose a bunch of soldiers during the next attack because they aren't firing at the people in red robes. "Shoot anyone wearing robes of any color!" you tell them. Then the sorcerers start wearing suits and your men don't fire on them. This goes on and on and you are about to lose your castle.

    You talk to your chief magical analyst, and he says "well, sorcerers can't do magic without magic wands. So why don't you just shoot anyone with a wand?" You try this. During the next attack, your men shoot anyone with a wand. They repel the attack. Next the sorcerers try to attack without wands, so they don't get shot - but since they can't do magic without their wands, they just end up running into the castle wall and bouncing off harmlessly. You win!
     
  19. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    966
    If so, we should also try to understand immune response and immune protection esp in qualitative difference created by these other proteins of virus. May it be secondary or weak but if there is qualitative difference than it can matter more. We should be getting multiple immune protection by it whereas single(may it be more robust) in case of spike protein based vaccine.

    Do you mean spike protein based epitope can not be easily changed by virus or be mutated? I think Covid-19 virus differ from SAR-Cov on spike protein's more virulence?

    Well explained. However, we need to justify that Spike protein of virus serve as wand of sorcerers. Probably natural infection or whole virus based vaccine will tend to kill sorcerers as a whole instead of just wand so that he do not develop some other magic tool which may also serve as wand. whereas Single unit Spike protein based vaccine will just snatch wand--to make sorcerers ineffective for the time being.
     
  20. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    966
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33515911/
    It suggests something odd.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,343
    Why on Earth do you believe we don't? Is it that you don't understand it well? No problems if that's the case (I am no immunologist either) but keep in mind that "I don't understand it" does not equal "We should try to understand it."
     
  22. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    966
    Sorry I do not doubt but some miss or weakness in absolute understabding is always possible.

    Hopefully, we should be sure that current understandind do understand well, immune response and immune protection from a Virus as a whole and from one part of it.
    Moreover, we may also need to be absolutely sure about proper efficacy of vaccines becsuse these will have long term irrevesible manifestation given to people at mass globaly. Any odd outcome from these mean??
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  23. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    966
    I also want to understand seriously. Which is or can be more responsible to getting variants of a virus? Natural infection, its treatments or its vaccines? Anything which resist survival and growth can be a reason to get evolutionary changes in it which may support its survival. Yes natural infection remission and its treatments resist virus survival and growth so can be a reson to getting its varisnts but vaccines??
     

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