Why are people against communism?

this "real life" is not one of stasis or inertia no matter how much the conservatives wish it were. we progressives have provided the impetus for most of the rights we see in place now. do a compare and contrast with mindsets that have existed previously and understand how sentience can evolve.

so what is real life? the sweatshop or 7 weeks paid vacation?
what is our paradigm? savagery or enlightenment?

Yeah, sometimes I think there's a secret right-winger playbook (I've been re-watching the entire X Files series) which is a bizarre amalgam of the writings of B.F. Skinner, Rudolph Carnap, the official edicts of the Church from the 14th century, and Ayn Rand's most hysterical "non"-fiction.

Not unlike Feyerabend's indictment of contemporary science and scientists, there's a culture of "normalcy" which shirks, or buries, all that is "deviant," rhizomatic, and more than a trifle fuzzy. Like that dude from the Jim Rose Circus said in that episode of The X Files (I forget which one):

Nature abhors normality!
 
It is essentially an attempt to make something true through excessive repetition.

Karlheinz Stockhausen long ago stated that he has always avoided the use of periodicity in his compositions because such reminds him of his childhood during the Nazi era. Hitler's speeches on the radio would always be preceded by (and sometimes accompanied by) a very persistent and insistent marching beat.
 
Fine then, let's just stick with the originally posited (by Read-Only) "human nature." Care to tell me what the hell that is?
what exactly are you saying? Do you mean that humans have no common behavioral characteristics?
OK, there will always be the lazy, the greedy, the power-hungry, etc., but in suggesting that by implementing such-and-such (i.e., communism, whatever), it will fail inevitably because it runs counter to this elusive "human nature" is absurd. How come mothers don't simply drop their lazy, good-for-nothing infants on their heads? Something to do with "human nature" perhaps? Why do we bother to feed all these fucking retards, gimps, retirees, etc. when they don't do a damn thing for it? Something to do with "human nature" perhaps?
Yes, of course. We have free will, but our behavior does generally fall within certain broad parameters that are generally called "human nature".
The "human nature" canard was effectively canned by most reputable scientists and academics, oh, some 50 to 60 years ago
What do you mean by this? We have a field of science known as behavioral genetics that studies the genetic basis for human behavior. Isn't this a study of human nature? And what of psychology? What is it that they study, if not human nature?
 
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

This oft-quoted line does not eliminate exploitation; it merely shifts the focus of exploitation from those who have ability to those who do not.

no, it doesn't. it really puzzles me why diehard pro-capitalists misinterpret this so idioticly or think that within a capitalist system this does not take place in some form or fashion.

in a capitalist system, the problem is there is exploitation by those who manipulate, not necessarily those who contribute. using the word 'ability' is a sly way of just keeping it shallow without looking further.

also, any good society will have this motto in real practice because everyone is interdependent. it is extremely stupid to think that people don't benefit from someone else's better capacity, even you. but the point is, all people have different skills that are necessary to make a whole. one may be a baker and another a butcher and another a town doctor and another a seamstress but they all need eachother or benefit or have something to offer that you want or need.
 
, all people have different skills that are necessary to make a whole. one may be a baker and another a butcher and another a town doctor and another a seamstress but they all need eachother or benefit or have something to offer that you want or need.
Yes. And in a capitalist system they all voluntarily exchange those goods and/ or services to everyone's mutual benefit.
 
Yes. And in a capitalist system they all voluntarily exchange those goods and/ or services to everyone's mutual benefit.

bullshit and outright lies. there is oppression, unfairness and exploitation within capitalism. it is not to everyone's mutual benefit either. this issue is not about what has been or is, but about finding ways to improve or implement to get a better balance. this black vs white thinking is extremely stupid when it comes to governments, whether it's communism or capitalism.
 
Yeah, sometimes I think there's a secret right-winger playbook (I've been re-watching the entire X Files series) which is a bizarre amalgam of the writings of B.F. Skinner, Rudolph Carnap, the official edicts of the Church from the 14th century, and Ayn Rand's most hysterical "non"-fiction.

Not unlike Feyerabend's indictment of contemporary science and scientists, there's a culture of "normalcy" which shirks, or buries, all that is "deviant," rhizomatic, and more than a trifle fuzzy. Like that dude from the Jim Rose Circus said in that episode of The X Files (I forget which one):

Nature abhors normality!

He also said "Paper cuts are the worst!" But not on that show.
 
Human Nature

Madanthonywayne said:

Do you mean that humans have no common behavioral characteristics?

The question is essentially whether human nature is, to the one, static or dynamic, and, to the other, universal or variable.

Does one definition of human nature, say, petit-bourgeois in the midwestern United States, necessarily bind another individual, say, deciding whether or not to leave his Somali coastal village and become a pirate? Can the latter's actions be properly assessed according to the former understanding of human nature?

I can say all I want about compassion being an evolutionarily selected aspect of human nature, but as the latest icon of African famine is being acknowledged, it is not impossible that one would propose to wonder at what point compassion is a bullet. That is, there comes a point when an individual is too far gone to rescue, but will continue to suffer until death for hours or even days.

One starts with compassion and ends up considering the proverbial bullet to the skull. I can say compassion is part of human nature, but what is compassion and how does it manifest according to human nature?

Beyond all that, though, is the question of whether a philosophy in effect demonstrates reasonable awareness of human nature. Even if the philosophical definition is correct, it can still be misapplied. This would be a best-case scenario for top-down revolutionary communism. The more the Soviets sought to consolidate and preserve their power—intuitively seeming to roll to a conservative outlook on political dynamics—the worse they made things. It happened in China. It happened in East Germany. It happened in North Korea. It's happening in Venezuela. When we stop to think that Fidel Castro is probably the best testament to the twentieth century revolutionary communist pantheon, it seems clear that there is something wrong with the method.

My father used to think of the communist failure to recognize human nature as the general idea that one would accept the same pay for working hard on the line as the next guy who just loafs through it. There is certainly a good deal of that to consider. I tend to look more toward the cultish aspects that fail to adapt to reality; a fundamental inflexibility. It's much the same as expecting altruism from rich people according to trickle down. After a while, the only people who believe it are those who want it to be true and require that other people believe it.

The solution, as I see it, is to create the structures from the bottom up. Put them in place one at a time. And I also have a certain faith that this is happening already, and will continue to happen. In that sense, our neighbor UfC is correct to worry, but I'm not able to reasonably expect to see the end of this transition during my lifetime unless I become a transhuman unit of some sort, and that's just not likely to happen, either. So I'm not going to get to see how all this plays out.

If we manage to doom ourselves along the way, it just means we weren't properly adapted to the demands of the Universe. Life goes on for the living.

Meanwhile, as long as we don't destroy ourselves, we will eventually get there. Circumstances demand it. Instead of ignoring human nature, the revolution must rely on it.

Still, though, just what is human nature? That is the difficult question.
____________________

Notes:

Gettleman, Jeffrey. "Somalis Waste Away as Insurgents Block Escape From Famine". The New York Times. August 2, 2011; page A1. NYTimes.com. August 7, 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/world/africa/02somalia.html

Gallafent, Alex. "Images of Famine in the Media". The World. August 2, 2011. TheWorld.org. August 7, 2011. http://www.theworld.org/2011/08/images-of-famine-in-the-media/
 
Still, though, just what is human nature? That is the difficult question.
____________________

I'll fax you over a copy of John99's report first thing Monday morning. And maybe I can get him to provide me with two bottles of human nature.
 
Which is comprised of who?
"Working class" is a well defined social term. You are free to look it up.
"Non-republican nations"? You mean countries like North Korea where the rights of the people are being stomped?
That, and the third world nations in Africa and parts of Asia where the people are exploited in sweatshops by foreign corporations, or thrown away in diamond mines for the sake of a few shiny rocks.
Who owns 2/3 of arable land nowadays? The Queen? You realize the Queen actually owns very little property outright, yes? No?
I was actually referring to the current situation in Brazil. (i.e, nowadays). But about the Queen, no matter how little land she owns, she should own none of it, and none of the fancy estates, or the millions of dollars of wealth. She doesn't deserve it. Monarchs are the result of feudal exploitation (leasing the land they claim to their vassals; while this doesn't happen today, her wealth is the result of it).

What about dictators like Lenin?
Are you trying to use dictator pejoratively? Because the word actually has a Roman origin, where it simply meant one who dictates...a leader. Yes, Lenin was a leader.

When he seized land, he went on to force the peasant class into complying with his wishes by seizing their grain and at times, forcing them into starvation.. The very peasant class you keep carrying on about who need equality.
Nonsense; his revolution provided the peasant classes with health care, education, food, land, and opportunity.

You mean like your ancestors did when they claimed land that wasn't theirs?
....which is why I want to fix the injustice....

You are their aristocrat. I can assure you, when they do rise up, it will be your exploiting arse they come for.
Nonsense; Marx was not a working class individual. He was very much a bourgeoisie individual, and yet he is lauded by fellow egalitarians; you don't have to come from poverty to fight it.

Lenin was an opportunist and a warmonger.
1) Lenin did indeed see the need for proletariat uprising, if that is what you mean by "opportunist"
2) Lenin did indeed see the need for armed revolt, if that is what you mean by "warmonger"

And Che. My God you're comparing the two? Lenin was the type that Ernesto actually went up against in South America. Lenin forced over 5 million peasants to death through starvation after the grain they grew was requisitioned by Lenin's army..
Actually, Lenin helped the peasants...like I said...about a hundred times now. Che and Lenin are both heroes, and in fact Che received aid from the Soviet Union.

You are not advocating freedom though. You are advocating a system that will bring further oppression and repression.. where human rights no longer exist and where the peasants are no longer given a choice about who or what they want to be. Your version of communism involves invoking a class and caste system and forcing people to death and/or what you call "re-education camps"..
People don't have the right to choose to exploit others, i.e, capitalism.

At this rate, the only thing I can assume is that you are either a troll or just stupid.
Actually, I am just adamant and firm in my belief in social justice, by any means necessary. I'm sorry that you believe in exploitation.

If people wish to be religious, it is not for you to determine they should not be. Banning religion is more oppressive.
Right, let's keep religion around, y'know, the system which is responsible for some of the bloodiest wars, and worst oppressions.

Which would make Lenin an aristocrat or part of the "upper tier". He was an educated man.
So was Marx; what's your point? I was saying that the majority of the educated during that time period were also the landowners, the ones that oppressed the peasant class. There were, of course, good educated people, too.

You are now advocating that education is dangerous..
Nonsense. Education is a fundamental right owed to every comrade. And that is what Lenin delivered.

He empowered the peasant and working class to bring himself to power. Or did that little fact escape you? He was an opportunist and he twisted the very notion of communism to suit his means and the result of the deaths of millions of peasants on his order.
You seem to have an almost personal grudge against Lenin, but I assure you, millions of fellow freedom fighters adore him. I frankly don't care about your asinine opinions about him.

They do know better and they support their Monarchy. It is not your choice and has nothing to do with you.
Then they do not believe in equality.

Quite the contrary. I am a supporter of human rights and the right of choice. Something that obviously escapes you.
You do not have the right to choose to exploit people.
I suspect he is more about the 'rah rah rah, power to the people, rah rah rah', without actually realising the reality of communism. He puts weight on the ideal but cannot actually understand the implication of what he is advocating.

For example, in the Mornachy thread, he says quite clearly that any who disagrees with his version of communism would need to be 're-educated'.. Whereupon it instantly becomes a dictatorship.. The whole 'respect my authoritay' spectre appears.
People who desire to exploit others and install or maintain feudal hierarchy are definitely in need of re-education

Personally I believe he is a troll. I mean re-education camps? Wanting to silence all opposition and deny them the right to free speech? The guy is either a troll or a loon.
I'm sorry you feel that way; but again, you do NOT have the right to exploit others. You can't vote for things like capitalism or monarchy; you don't have that right, you are not entitled to exploitation.
 
I was going to reply on a line by line basis, but when I hit that bullshit about dictators being benevolent, like Lenin and Stalin (20 million of his own countrymen killed, but hey, it was all for the cause, right?), I realized that it would be silly and futile to respond.

UofC, it has been intimated that you are simply a trolling teenager. I would tend to agree with that. Everything would be fine if YOU were in charge, wouldn't it.
 
Actually I'm neither a teenager nor am I 'trolling". I think it's fair to be extremely appalled by colonial and imperialist atrocities.

FYI, I NEVER EVER defended Stalin. I defended Lenin, who was a revolutionary, who created the communist USSR. Stalin was the corrupt one who destroyed it.
 
Actually, upon second thought, the title "Stockholm Syndrome" was fitting to the idea of the feature - namely that the Swedes are suffering Stockholm Syndrome at the hands of Communism/Socialism, and that they need to be saved from it.

Socialism specifically. Communism wasn't even part of it.
 
I think it's fair to be extremely appalled by colonial and imperialist atrocities

And to then embrace an historically proven worse system is stupid.

I've challenged you before on this... please point to someplace larger than a hippie commune where communism has EVER successfully been implmented.

Far more people have been oppressed and died under the rubic of 'communism' then have ever suffered under capitalism. Several of them being my collateral ancestors.
 
Fine then, let's just stick with the originally posited (by Read-Only) "human nature." Care to tell me what the hell that is?

It is the full set of behavioral rules that humans are genetically constrained to.

OK, there will always be the lazy, the greedy, the power-hungry, etc., but in suggesting that by implementing such-and-such (i.e., communism, whatever), it will fail inevitably because it runs counter to this elusive "human nature" is absurd.

One of the most basic behaviors that I *think* applies to all mammals is motivation and reward. Rats are an excellent example of it because everyone is familiar with reward experiments with rats. For example, a rat will learn how to navigate mazes if there is a reward of some tasty treat at the end. They basically work for reward. Humans do the same thing. We navigate anything from the complexities of microcomputers to the mind-numbing assembly lines of tacos... all for reward. Communism specifically replaces the reward with "you are doing it for the good of the whole". In other words, when you pretend to reward people, other people pretend to work. The very few who buy into the idea and do actual work get fed up rather fast and quit (Read-Only's hippie community example shows this nicely).

How come mothers don't simply drop their lazy, good-for-nothing infants on their heads? Something to do with "human nature" perhaps?

They actually starve them, beat them up, and kill them if they aren't valuable to the mothers.

Why do we bother to feed all these fucking retards, gimps, retirees, etc. when they don't do a damn thing for it? Something to do with "human nature" perhaps?

Simple, it would be mean. And one of the core behaviors that all humans judge each other against is "are you mean?".

The "human nature" canard was effectively canned by most reputable scientists and academics, oh, some 50 to 60 years ago-...

Then it's a shame that modern biologists, geneticists, evoluationary behaviorists, neuroscientists, and psychologists don't know that.

-but then you're the guy that thinks that videorecording an event somehow eliminates observer bias, right? :rolleyes:

Without context I can't really say I know what you are talking about; however, I suspect it has to deal with removing the escape card from paranormal/crank claims.
 
And to then embrace an historically proven worse system is stupid.
I am embracing true communism, not Soviet-type communism.

I've challenged you before on this... please point to someplace larger than a hippie commune where communism has EVER successfully been implemented.
So if I point out a failed democracy, can we go ahead and say democracy is a a failure?

Far more people have been oppressed and died under the rubic of 'communism' then have ever suffered under capitalism. Several of them being my collateral ancestors.

Actually that is false (your first point).

If you count all the millions that have died during the centuries of SLAVERY, coupled with all those who have died from lack of basic services, cigarettes, etc, the capitalists have killed FAR more people.
 
I am embracing true communism, not Soviet-type communism....

So if I point out a failed democracy, can we go ahead and say democracy is a a failure?

I've asked you to point out ANY successful communist state. You can't. Why would anyone embrace something which has NEVER worked?

If you count all the millions that have died during the centuries of SLAVERY, coupled with all those who have died from lack of basic services, cigarettes, etc, the capitalists have killed FAR more people.

This statement is simply untrue nonsense. People who have died from cigarettes? Are you serious?

You are the essence of the supreme authoritarian. You want to control every aspect of peoples lives to conform with what you want. You are Stalin's spiritual successor.
 
"Working class" is a well defined social term. You are free to look it up.

I don't need to look it up. I spent the better part of my evenings in high school cleaning toilets to save money to purchase a house and pay for my educational expenses for when I started university.. I am the working class.

You on the other hand are nothing but a troll using soundbites because you seem to believe that dictators like Lenin are somehow 'cool'.

That, and the third world nations in Africa and parts of Asia where the people are exploited in sweatshops by foreign corporations, or thrown away in diamond mines for the sake of a few shiny rocks.
All of which you use.

Tell me, who makes your shoes? Do you check? Do you check who makes your clothes and check to make sure they are not using exploitation to save you a few bucks? How about your computer and phone? TV? The chocolates you probably consume? I could go on. I would guess you do none of those things. You see, you are a hypocrite. Tell me, how often to do you go out and help the homeless or those less fortunate than you? How much do you go out and act like a true Marxist and lobby for the "peasant class"? Seeing that you cannot even determine who or what constitutes the working class in today's society, I can already guess your answer.

I was actually referring to the current situation in Brazil.
So what do you do to help the people of Brazil? You know, actually help them and not use a soapbox to further your own aspirations? How many homeless children have you helped save or lobbied to save from death squads roaming the poor areas in Brazil?

But about the Queen, no matter how little land she owns, she should own none of it, and none of the fancy estates, or the millions of dollars of wealth. She doesn't deserve it. Monarchs are the result of feudal exploitation (leasing the land they claim to their vassals; while this doesn't happen today, her wealth is the result of it).
It is not for you to determine who should be wealthy and who deserves anything. Her subjects like her and love her as their Queen. They don't want to get rid of her. Or has that fact escaped you?

Are you trying to use dictator pejoratively? Because the word actually has a Roman origin, where it simply meant one who dictates...a leader. Yes, Lenin was a leader.
He was a dictator and a political opportunistic greedy fucker who allowed over 10 million people [peasants] to starve to death after he seized their land and their grain, leaving them none to survive on. He was a dictator with all the negative connotations attached to the term itself. A leader leads his/her people. He does not cause millions to die to cement his political position and leadership.

Nonsense; his revolution provided the peasant classes with health care, education, food, land, and opportunity.
The revolution he rushed back to force himself into the leadership role (yes, that's right, the movement was already underway and he saw a leadership vacuum and returned immediately) resulted in his ordering the deaths of millions through either direct slaughter or mass starvation of the peasant class to cement his role as the leader.. He did not provide them with opportunity. His revolution ensured that they could only ever be the 'peasant class'. He banned all opposition and any protest against his slaughterous regime and killed anyone who dared demand equal rights (yes, especially from the peasant class). His revolution not only cemented his leadership, he also ensured that the class system would remain in place and be more defined..

....which is why I want to fix the injustice....
By harping on an internet forum? Why don't you pur your words into practice and channel Ernesto and go out and actually see for yourself the deplorable situation of the native population of our home country? I am guessing you are American? Why don't you go out and onto the reservation and try to help them combat the rampant alcoholism and drug abuse? Actually do something worthwhile instead of being the hypocritical little snot you are currently being on this forum. You're all about 'rah rah communism rah rah'. You have no true idea of what the people want or their current social condition. You just dream of homocidal power like Lenin..

Nonsense; Marx was not a working class individual. He was very much a bourgeoisie individual, and yet he is lauded by fellow egalitarians; you don't have to come from poverty to fight it.
No one is claiming he was not what he was.

Marx was also very poor at one point.. He knew the very meaning of poverty. Tell me, how often have you wondered where your next meal would come from? How often have you seen your parents planting vegetables because it was the only way they could know where their next meal was going to come from? I have been there. You obviously have not. So yes, I sneer at little snots like yourself thinking 'rah rah revolution' when you know nothing about the human condition or human nature itself.

You don't know poverty today. You can only refer to poverty at the time of Marx...

1) Lenin did indeed see the need for proletariat uprising, if that is what you mean by "opportunist"
2) Lenin did indeed see the need for armed revolt, if that is what you mean by "warmonger"
Lenin was an opportunist because he saw the USSR as only being able to be led by him.. There was no vote or election to put him in place. He saw the opportunity and he grabbed it with both hands and committed a holocaust to cement his position there. When foreign aid workers begged to be allowed in to help the very peasants he was supposed to be saving, only to force them into starvation, he at first refused until millions had died. Then he allowed them in, but it was too late. He was a greedy fucking dictator who caused millions to die for his own power trip. Yes, he was an opportunist who unfortunately was not handed over to the "peasant class" for them to exact some form of revenge on him.

Actually, Lenin helped the peasants...like I said...about a hundred times now. Che and Lenin are both heroes, and in fact Che received aid from the Soviet Union.
Ernesto went out and physically tended to the masses, provided medical and other forms of care. Lenin sat upon his self made throne and ordered the deaths of millions. Ernesto ended up scoffing at the USSR for their hypocrisy.. I would suggest you go back and actually study what kind of man Ernesto was. He was a killer, but at no time did he order millions of the peasant class to die for power. Quite the contrary.

People don't have the right to choose to exploit others, i.e, capitalism.
Nor should anyone attempt to pervert the very notion of communism for power.

Actually, I am just adamant and firm in my belief in social justice, by any means necessary. I'm sorry that you believe in exploitation.
Right.. So tell me, where does 're-educating' the masses come into social justice?

You wouldn't understand social justice if it bit you on your backside, I'm afraid.

Right, let's keep religion around, y'know, the system which is responsible for some of the bloodiest wars, and worst oppressions.
And you think denying the "peasants" their religious beliefs and their culture is better? Do you know one of the biggest issues with the USSR was the fact that people were denied their basic human rights?

So was Marx; what's your point? I was saying that the majority of the educated during that time period were also the landowners, the ones that oppressed the peasant class. There were, of course, good educated people, too.
Lenin not only oppressed the peasants, he foced over 10 million of them to die of starvation and others were forced into labour camps..

Nonsense. Education is a fundamental right owed to every comrade. And that is what Lenin delivered.
To only select few. Others were left to starve to death or were killed.

You seem to have an almost personal grudge against Lenin, but I assure you, millions of fellow freedom fighters adore him. I frankly don't care about your asinine opinions about him.
I hold a grudge against anyone who slaughters millions for power. Call me strange.

And millions of "freedom fighters"? Heh! You mean there are millions out there who adore a mass murderer or millions out there who are dumb?

Then they do not believe in equality.
Which is their choice and their right.

You do not have the right to choose to exploit people.
Neither do you.

People who desire to exploit others and install or maintain feudal hierarchy are definitely in need of re-education
And people who murder millions of people for power deserve to be imprisoned for life without any chance of parole..

The same should apply for their fanboys.

I'm sorry you feel that way; but again, you do NOT have the right to exploit others. You can't vote for things like capitalism or monarchy; you don't have that right, you are not entitled to exploitation.
I have the right to vote as I choose to. You do not have the right to assume that anyone should be 're-educated' to think like you do.

You see, if you were a true communist, you would have gained some support. Alas you're nothing but a soundbite, and an uneducated one at that and yes, a troll.
 
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