With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

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Second, there are sincere apologists who, by trying to test the arguments for themselves (rather in the spirit of Luke 14:28-31, one might add), have unwittingly accustomed themselves to weighing arguments, not simply accepting things on faith. Having learned to take the unbeliever's side for the sake of argument (becoming one's own intellectual sparring partner), simple faith is no longer as easy as it once was. Doubt becomes a familiar habit, however miserable it makes one. Sooner or later the honest apologist winds up looking back nostalgically to the days of childlike naivete before he got into apologetics and apologetics made everything more complicated! He may realize the irony of his position: he has learned strategies for promoting saving faith, "simple faith," which however, have made it less and less possible for him to rest easy in such faith.

Worse yet, the longer one scrutinizes the apologetical arguments, the more one tests their merit in actual debate, the more holes one is brought inevitably to see. And, unless one feels able to descend to a level of complete cynicism in the interests of promoting faith (!), one simply cannot maintain one's own faith any longer. If, as you used to tell unbelievers, they ought to believe Christianity only insofar as it makes sense to do so, you realize the jig is up once it no longer makes sense to you. It is too late to fall for the old saw that "the foolishness of God is wiser than men."
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http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/son.html


Comments

I am the Christian depicted in the quote. I can no longer honestly defend my faith and relinquish my all so glorious title, Defender of the Faith. After an objective inspection of the Bible, I can simply find no reason to believe either in it's historicity or theological claims. I can not in good faith deny my ability to reason and continue to believe in what other people have told me to believe. I have heard only one side of the story for all my life, so long so that I even spewed much of that garbage on these forums and was puzzled when I was ridiculed for my beliefs. At first, ignorantly believing that these disbelievers were simply minions of Satan, sent to rob me of my faith, I squeezed my advise to their objective counsel and assured myself that I would rather trust in God than in man. Despite my fervent efforts to disprove any arguments against my beloved Christ, I fatigued myself and sought to find out just why the heathen

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were so equally ardent in their denouncement of Jesus when all I saw when I opened the Bible was unparalleled truth and majesty.

There was a day when I borrowed some anti-Christian books and took them to Church to show my teachers. They rebuked me for taking these "heretical" writings and asked me whether or not I was having "doubts". As you all must know, having doubts in Christian circles about the faith is a definite no-no. Not only will the rest of the pack swoop down on your neck with pitying words for not believing but they might even (as has happened to me) threaten banishment from the Church for not believing what the majority believes.

The reason I say this with a heavy heart is because somewhere deep inside of me, I hope earnestly that my findings are wrong and that I will find solace in God. I have prayed dearly for some sort of revelation that would boost my faith and open my eyes to what are some obvious, irrefutable contradictions in the Bible. There is no question that the writers of the Bible thought that the Lord would return during their lifetime but He did not and has not. Two thousand years and all we have to show is persecution, strife and disagreement towards "fellow" Christians. The doctrines one must follow to be called a Christian have changed so often that I am sure that even by having entertained doubting thoughts, I disqualified my salvation.

The feeling of emptiness that lies within me as I realize I have nothing to live for and basically nothing to do in the religion foum scares me. I cling innocently to the last strands of hope fearing that if I severe ties altogether, I may be cast into hell fire for all eternity. So this is what it has come to. §outh§tar's beliefs are now based on fears of eternal wrath from a God he can no longer believe in with a clear conscience. The saddening part is that I cannot bear to even tell my Christian friends and especially my mother that I have removed myself from the faith, for fear of embarassment, shame and the way they will treat me. What I find even more saddening is that they will not listen to what I say despite how clearly I convey it to them, they are zealous fundamentalists, even as I was. Even if I wanted to be a Christian (I would rather than not, we have holidays

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) I can not, for despite my most passioned attempts to reconcile the contradictions and disagreements and dismiss the glaring truth that I have been brainwashed to not question and to obey like a "sheep", I simply cannot defend the Bible and Christianity without playing word games and carefully constructing unsound doctrine.

This is my message to all Christians, especially those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible:

Believe not what you read from other Christians without testing it first for yourself. Do not think that you are right and that everyone else is simply misguided or (as I at times thought) demon possessed. (Might I mention, the demons of the Bible can not be true, even if they do exist.) PLEASE, DO SOME THINKING ON YOUR OWN. SEE BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT. I BEG YOU.

If Christians never read atheist books and they never read Buddhist, Muslim and other religious books, how can they ever think they have the truth? The ostrich whick hides in the sand all it's days soon finds that all other bird have sprouted wings.

And also a question to atheists in particular, to whom I have now joined ranks..:

What meaning do you have in life? I formerly believed myself to be pleasing God and furthering His kingdom (all part of the Christian jargon) and that I would one day be rewarded for all eternity. I find that there really is no reason for me to live either a moral or immoral life but my Christian upbringing has pretty much ensured that I will never become a drunkard or be smoking port or banging pretty girls after ten... What reasons do you give for living moral lives? What solace and comfort do you have for life and what joy do you have in death? What then do you devote your lives to if not for a "higher purpose and calling"?

 

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I never thought I'd see any Christian's faith faulter and become an atheist. Maybe that's agnosticism, but it doesn't matter right now.

I'm sorry that this is a tough time for you. And I hope everything will get better. Maybe my answers for your questions to atheists will help.

You ask what meaning we have in life. There probably isn't a predefined meaning. However, I believe we as human beings can create a reason for living. The reason I have created? We should live so we can help others - not only physically, but emotionally and spiritually as well. This reason for living gives us a purpose - to help others - thus reenforcing the reason for living.

You ask what reason we have for living moral lives. Well, think of it this way: if everyone were immoral, that would make life very miserable. Being miserable is no fun at all. And immorality doesn't help anyone. It only harms. Try your best to do no harm and only help, and others may follow your lead, and your life will be enjoyable. Even if others don't follow your lead, you can at least be happy that you are making others happy.

I should also say that morality and immorality are subjective. What's immoral in one culture may be perfectly okay in another. For example, you may never once think of eating your dog, because he/she is a member of your family. But in Asia, dogs are served as food in restaurants. Since you don't have Christianity to tell you what is moral, you are free to write your very own moral code. Look at everything and decide if it really hurts anyone or not. If it does, it's probably immoral. If it doesn't, then it's probably okay. Use logic and common sense, and I'm sure you'll get it right.

What joy do we have in death? The only joy that we can be guaranteed is that joy from knowing you have helped improve the quality of life for almost everyone you have come in contact with. No one wants to die. In our culture, we are afraid of the end. But just live life, and don't worry too much about death until you are face-to-face with it. As long as you help as much as you can and do as little harm as you can, there is no need to worry.

Lastly, you ask what we should devote our lives to if not for a higher purpose and calling. I say devote life to living. Try to thoroughly enjoy it, because it's the only one we have right now, and it's relatively short. Also, just because you don't believe in God, that doesn't mean you have forfeited the opportunity to believe in an afterlife. If you choose to believe in an afterlife, just live life to the fullest so that you don't have to worry about death, and you'll be ready for the afterlife.

Those are my personal philosiphies for life. If you don't like them, feel free to start designing your own.

That emptyness that Christianity used to fill will eventually disappear. Don't worry.

Oh, and lastly, ya don't need to be a Christian to celebrate Christian holidays.

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I celebrate Christmas every year, and I've even done Passover a couple years ago. Your lack of faith in God and Jesus doesn't make Christmas any less meaningful and magical. Celebrate it for the spirit of giving, for it fills your heart with warmth when you give a truely great gift to another. Not necessarily the newest high-tech gadget or coolest action figure, but Love and Kindness.

Everything will be better eventually. And I hope TheMatrixIsReal and I have helped. Peace, Love, Health, and Happiness to you and everyone else!

- Âðelwulf

 

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You say you've joined the ranks of atheists...have you been completetly disillusioned of the idea of a God altogether? Even though I once was raised to be a christian and found myself on the same path you are now on, I still cannot bring myself to believe in the utter inexistence of some kind of creative force, no matter how hard I try. And I do try. I suppose many here would consider this "conversion" to be a "victory," but it is an empty one. Losing my faith was dificult to deal with, but it not only offered hope, but opened me up to broader possibilities.

"What meaning do you have in life?"
To live. I know that this is the only chance I get to to do so, and so every experience is something to be relished, something to be sought out and learned from, to add to the compendum of self and to make the next experience richer for the benefit of the event. I am comforted by knowing that though I will pass, I may be granted a sense of immortality by my works and accomplishments in this life. Who would forget the name Mozart? Abraham Lincoln? Ghandi? To name only a great few. They are all people who have accomplished great things, and so live on through their accomplishments. The way you influence the lives of others; your children for instance; will affect the way they influence their children and the people around them, and in a snese you live on through your actions. I take comfort in knowing that when I die, I will have lived my life to the fullest that I was aware, that I have accomplished all that I could, and that perhaps our Society/species/world/whatever may have benefited from what I have tried to contribute to it.

Anyway, congratulations/I'm sorry.

 

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Wow. Everybody got their replies in before mine, and I was kind of surprised to see such similarity in the ideas we expressed after clicking the submit button.

 

Southstar, maybe you're in the wrong Christian circles. What church is it that you speak of? Many Christians, such as me, don't believe in the inerrancy of every scriptural passage of every book in the Bible. We believe if interpreted correctly, the text is not theologically wrong; that is to say the text is infalliable. Sure, I'll argue substantial portions of the Bible(like almost all of it) are historically correct, but it is not a history book.

 

Ah, it's good to see that everyone that has posted so far have the same basic philosophies for living.

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See, §outh§tar? An atheistic life isn't so bad.

 

I still don't see any holidays

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I hear that they're trying to create national recognition of Darwin's Birthday.

 

Make yer own holidays. That should be fun.

 

Besides, even if you don't recognize the christian holidays as such, as highly commercialized as they have become it's now mainstream for non-christians to celebrate them as well.

 

I admit that I cannot bring myself to terms that there is simply no God since I would truly be depressed then but what has been put into my Head about Him is not harmonious and rather incompatible.

As for living to make a name for oneself, since there *can be no afterlife*, it really matters not whether or not I even tried. Hitler did his thing and left and yet people remember him and his "contributions".

If I was never there to enjoy my accomplishments, is it not true that I might as well be terribly cruel since my life is so short that it would ultimately make no difference? I mean Mozart and Lincoln are probably not going to be mentioned a millenium from now (if we have that long).

It seems that whether a person chooses to conform to society or not, their actions ultimately matter to them and them alone. Good or evil, it matters during their extremely short life and then that is it, they have no "recollection" of their deeds. Meaning they have no reason to care what the effects, whether positive or negative, of their deeds are since they won't be there to acknowledge them.

If I decided to spray a school of kindergarteners (I won't

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) and I got shot by the police in the process, it wouldn't matter whether or not that was an evil thing to do since I am dead and gone forever with no regret or guilt afterwards.

I guess what I am saying is it seems ultimately futile to live a moral life if the results are going to be so meagre and temporal. Aspiring for eternity seemed more promising a prospect for me.

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§outh§tar: "I can no longer honestly defend my faith and relinquish my all so glorious title, Defender of the Faith. After an objective inspection of the Bible, I can simply find no reason to believe either in it's historicity or theological claims. I can not in good faith deny my ability to reason and continue to believe in what other people have told me to believe. I have heard only one side of the story for all my life, so long so that I even spewed much of that garbage on these forums and was puzzled when I was ridiculed for my beliefs. At first, ignorantly believing that these disbelievers were simply minions of Satan, sent to rob me of my faith, I squeezed my advise to their objective counsel and assured myself that I would rather trust in God than in man. Despite my fervent efforts to disprove any arguments against my beloved Christ, I fatigued myself and sought to find out just why the heathen

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were so equally ardent in their denouncement of Jesus when all I saw when I opened the Bible was unparalleled truth and majesty.
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M*W: My dear SouthStar. For the first time, I'm having a hard time finding words. My happiness for you is making me cry right now. It's as if you have been set free from your false imprisonment. I understand the torment that must have been going through your mind. I've been there, and I know the torment you are going through.
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SouthStar: There was a day when I borrowed some anti-Christian books and took them to Church to show my teachers. They rebuked me for taking these "heretical" writings and asked me whether or not I was having "doubts". As you all must know, having doubts in Christian circles about the faith is a definite no-no. Not only will the rest of the pack swoop down on your neck with pitying words for not believing but they might even (as has happened to me) threaten banishment from the Church for not believing what the majority believes.
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M*W: SouthStar, this is the beginning of the grief process. You are still in a state of shock from your realization. This will take its course, but there are stages of grief that you will go through. It's a natural process that everyone goes through in the trials of life. Please remember that you have support here. I know I've been hard on you, but it was for your own good. I will be here for you if you need a friend. You can PM me or email me anytime at medwoman@swbell.net. I've been in your shoes many years ago, and I'll be here for you if you want me to hold your hand and walk with you through this process.
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SouthStar: The reason I say this with a heavy heart is because somewhere deep inside of me, I hope earnestly that my findings are wrong and that I will find solace in God. I have prayed dearly for some sort of revelation that would boost my faith and open my eyes to what are some obvious, irrefutable contradictions in the Bible. There is no question that the writers of the Bible thought that the Lord would return during their lifetime but He did not and has not. Two thousand years and all we have to show is persecution, strife and disagreement towards "fellow" Christians. The doctrines one must follow to be called a Christian have changed so often that I am sure that even by having entertained doubting thoughts, I disqualified my salvation.
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M*W: No, dear SouthStar, you have not disqualified your salvation. You are here, living and breathing, among us. Salvation to me is the being of existence. If you or I were unworthy, we wouldn't be here.
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SouthStar: The feeling of emptiness that lies within me as I realize I have nothing to live for and basically nothing to do in the religion foum scares me. I cling innocently to the last strands of hope fearing that if I severe ties altogether, I may be cast into hell fire for all eternity. So this is what it has come to. §outh§tar's beliefs are now based on fears of eternal wrath from a God he can no longer believe in with a clear conscience. The saddening part is that I cannot bear to even tell my Christian friends and especially my mother that I have removed myself from the faith, for fear of embarassment, shame and the way they will treat me. What I find even more saddening is that they will not listen to what I say despite how clearly I convey it to them, they are zealous fundamentalists, even as I was. Even if I wanted to be a Christian (I would rather than not, we have holidays

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) I can not, for despite my most passioned attempts to reconcile the contradictions and disagreements and dismiss the glaring truth that I have been brainwashed to not question and to obey like a "sheep", I simply cannot defend the Bible and Christianity without playing word games and carefully constructing unsound doctrine.

This is my message to all Christians, especially those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible:

Believe not what you read from other Christians without testing it first for yourself. Do not think that you are right and that everyone else is simply misguided or (as I at times thought) demon possessed. (Might I mention, the demons of the Bible can not be true, even if they do exist.) PLEASE, DO SOME THINKING ON YOUR OWN. SEE BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT. I BEG YOU.
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M*W: SouthStar, remember, I came to realize that Christianity was false, and I grieved through my loss just as you are. It is a painful experience to lose something that you trusted so much, something that you believed in with all your heart, and the strongest connection to fellowship that you have ever known. I've been there, and I grieved through my loss of my innermost soul, if you will. It is a shocking revelation, but you will grow from it. I promise.
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SouthStar: If Christians never read atheist books and they never read Buddhist, Muslim and other religious books, how can they ever think they have the truth? The ostrich whick hides in the sand all it's days soon finds that all other bird have sprouted wings.
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M*W: SouthStar, you're not an ostrich. You eyes have been opened, and the voice you hear is speaking the truth. Give it the time you need to work through this grief process. You will come out stronger and more enlightened -- just like Jesus was. I know you will have a stronger faith than you've ever had before, because the truth will come in loud and clear.
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SouthStar: And also a question to atheists in particular, to whom I have now joined ranks..:

What meaning do you have in life? I formerly believed myself to be pleasing God and furthering His kingdom (all part of the Christian jargon) and that I would one day be rewarded for all eternity. I find that there really is no reason for me to live either a moral or immoral life but my Christian upbringing has pretty much ensured that I will never become a drunkard or be smoking port or banging pretty girls after ten... What reasons do you give for living moral lives? What solace and comfort do you have for life and what joy do you have in death? What then do you devote your lives to if not for a "higher purpose and calling"?
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M*W: SouthStar, there will always be meaning to life. The difference is that you will appreciate your life so much more than you did as a Christian. You know my beliefs, and I can tell you, being on sciforums has changed my life, too. I know the truth, and I've even gone through some grief since I've communicated with other non-believers on the forum. Thankfully, my mind is clearer than it was before. And the best part is, there really is no loss for what you are grieving for! You will come to realize that you are a man of faith, a man of trust, and a man who has finally come to know God -- the God in YOU!

Life will become so much better, and your understanding of life will be more keen. You are NOT alone, my friend! I'm sure that any of the other folks on the forum would be willing to help you through this difficult time. I promise you, one day you will wake up in the morning and clearly see your former fellow Christians are caught up in a psychological trap, and you will grieve for them, but they will ridicule you and tell you Satan has gotten hold of you. I'm sure you know all the tactics. They'll be praying for your soul, and talking about you behind your back. But, please remember this, my friend -- You are Free, and they aren't. Welcome to the real world, my friend. You have not lost your salvation -- you have gained it! Don't ever let it go again!

 

I have a nice proposal! How 'bout we set aside a day to celebrate atheism and agnosticism! Just on SciForums. That way, §outh§tar will have a holiday. It doesn't have to be a day either. It can be a week out of every month, or a whole month. I vote yes. How 'bout you guys?

 

But if Hitler decided not to help any Jews and he decided to kill as many of them as possible, he is dead and gone and there is no guilt on his heart. Therefore is it not futile to try to be good if there is only going to be a temporal effect, one which you might not even live long enough to experience? If you have no assurance of reward for your good works when it is all over and done (like in heaven), then doesn't it become a hopeless endeavor to do good when no one will notice it while you live, and certainly no one notices it as time goes on after your death?

Sorry, a sense of hopelessness is stifling me. I have nothing to look forward to except chance and circumstance , that good fortunate and luck will befall me in the slapdash game of life.

 

Hitler was immoral in my eyes. And I'm sure you and everyone else here agrees with me. He harmed people. That is a legacy he has left. Everyone will remember him as a murderer of millions.

Doing good can be its own reward. Isn't it superficial to think there must be some other reward?

And it's not a hopeless endeavor to do good. Someone will notice! Think about Ghandi.

I can understand your sense of hopelessness. All will be better. Just know that you don't need a God or Jesus to live a virtuous and moral life.

Good luck to you!

 

What is the point of aspiring then?

What is the point of going to college only to have a car accident end your life? Or hone basketball skills only to be paralyzed on the day of your first game?

It seems like life is now simply left to chance and luck instead of certain assurance in the future. There is no stake in the future since we have no hope in it.


Even if I was a good person all my life, when I died because some guy having a bad day decided to rob a store, all my work would be in vain. Sooner or later no one would remember me.

There is also my dilemma of what if I'm wrong, and there really is a hell. I surely don't want to spend eternity there and this frightens me enough that I am borderline and keep hoping there will be some divine revelation that reassures me and gives me some sort of hope.

Doing a whole lot of evil deeds will not make a difference as oppoesd to doing good deeds because I simply will die one day and that will be the end. My legacy and efforts will be so irrelevant that people would forget me. The same way people will forget Hitler even as people are already forgetting Sept. 11th. I could be as evil and cruel as I bloody well pleased because I knew it would be of no concern to me after I lived. I would end up with all the 'good' people in the same earth, rotting flesh with worms living in me. This all seems to be futility to me.
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Sorry guys that I can't answer all your replies quickly enough. I will sooner or later get to your reply.

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What do you think I should do? Should I pretend to my mother and church members that I am no longer a believer? I simply don't have the balls to tell them, to put it frankly. I am afraid they will treat me differently in a more condescending, pitying manner. I know it's probably a stupid fear but it's still something I can't overcome.

 

Then lets call you agnostic and not an atheist. There varying degrees of such; agnostics that believe that we cannot know of the nature and eistence of a god, and there are agnostics that believe we simply have no way of knowing right now. I'm of the latter and you seem to be of a similar mind.

I don't quite follow you on why it wouldn't matter. True Hitler will live on in infamy, but despite the horror he wreaked on the world, we have learned from that experience, and anything that can be learned from inarguably offers a benefit to mankind. Heh, don't misconstrue that. Yes, Hitler will live on through his works, yes, you could do the same. It's your choice. Wherever you stand on the spectrum of moral/immorality, you will still be remembered by whatever contribution you choose to make.

You're right, it is doubtful that they will be remembered that long, however: The society that exists today is a society that was influenced by their accomplishments. Wherever society goes tomorrow, it will go there with that foundation, built up from the society that was inflenced by them...so that as long as there is mankind, it will be a mankind that owes it's position to the contributions those in it's past; whether or not it remembers them.

 

Thats the best reason to live for life itself, to not waste any moment or opportunity. I know I could in a split second from now. Sure, it's distressing as hell, but it's also a great spur to live every moment to it's fullest, as they say. It's this cold, seemingless hopeless prospect that kept a lot of christians I knew to stay christians. It's more comforting to have something to look forward to, yes, and I would love to have it, too. If you find the alternative to religion to be too stark, well, perhaps you should speak with some knowledgeable clergy or christian scholars in an attempt to rekindle your faith...there's every possibility that they're right and we're wrong. I've been an optimest from the outset and so I can't really relate to the ideas you're expressing. I'm trying to think of a way to put different slant on the situation to give you a more positive outlook...i'll let you know if I can come up with anything.

 

SouthStar, the more good that you do, the more your heart will be uplifted. The more you pray, the more hope you will have, and the more hope you have, the more good you will be able to do.

The way you speak of your church mkaes me think you ought to spend a little time away from there.

 

Yes, but ultimately all that Hitler did mattered to him and only him. Right this instant, he obviously doesn't care what anyone thinks of him. You might as well think he is the messiah and he still wouldn't care.

All the bad things he did are ultimately of no consequence in the grand scheme of things unless you make them out to be so. I suspect Hitler assumed his actions to be good instead of sinful. Regardless of what others thought he still did it because it was good to him. He died, he's gone and he still doesn't care what others think. This is why I say it's futility, it is ultimately between a man and his actions. What others think will not matter ultimately so what is the point of doing good?

If Hitler had decided to be a monk all his life it's still him and his actions. What others thought of his work will not die with him, what he thought of himself will not die with him. He didn't die good or bad, he just died and was gone forever. A rather hopeless fate, regardless of whether he did good or bad.