women's march

Discussion in 'Politics' started by sculptor, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Ok so, my beloved spouse is off to a women's march ---she will take her friend(who seems to be surviving another bout of cancer), and our granddaughter. The cancer survivor is too weak to march and is worried that she will be seen to "be sitting this one out".

    Nice day for it.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Peer pressure? On a cancer survivor?
    Surely the world has not come to this.
     
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  5. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

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    I would certainly hope the peer pressure was self imposed.
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    perhaps her fear/worry is unfounded?
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Surely the world has not come to what?
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Peer pressure on a recovering cancer survivor to participate in a march she's too weak to handle because they might think poorly of her.
     
  10. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Let her do what she wants to do.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I see. Can we try it this way: That is your first presumption ... why?

    I just find it interesting that the first response is to attack other women.

    In a way, I suppose, it kind of makes sense. Or we might suggest, simply, that you don't really know a lot of women, or perhaps don't know much about women, or something like that.

    Because it is also true that if a woman drags herself out to care for the family when she doesn't feel well, we generally don't worry about peer pressure. Generally speaking, nuclear families do not regard wives and mothers as peers; if they did, she could focus on recuperating with the confidence that other people and needs will be attended. There is as such, underlying pressure, but I think we are too kind to call it peer pressure.

    This could be the revolution women have been waiting for since ... er ... well before I was born. Let's go with sixty-two, then we can say this is fifty-five years into wondering when it finally happens. Every time circumstance presents this opportunity, it will also be some woman's potential last chance to make this stand; if you think cancer is going to sit her down, well, that's the point, we want her to live through this, but she will not be seen sitting this one out because it means this much to her.

    Generally speaking, she will answer the women according to how she perceives them perceiving her; she will answer the men similarly. "Peer pressure" isn't the proper term except in specialized application, such as age peers, which some men are.

    So, between those who want her to live long enough to witness and experience liberation, to the one, and those who would dispute her liberation because, look, not all women agree—or some similar desperate traditionalist slings and arrows—the pressure most likely isn't coming from her sisters.

    And the most difficult thing about explaining this to you is trying to figure out how to explain the blatantly obvious in response to what ought not be so predictable.

    Let us try it, but only for a moment, with harsh style: A guy who doesn't like or respect women looking for a reason to complain? I would say surely the world has not come to this, except, come on, that is how it has been for a long, long time.

    Or, you know, maybe that's not you, maybe you're not wrong; maybe that's how your community raised people. But, honestly, out here on the west coast of the United States—and even in my corner of too-proud-to-be-a-suburb exurbia, where you can see the gun racks for the gun racks while waiting in line at the drive-through coffee stand—your poor characterizations of women read like the inherently hostile and denigrating bullshit we hear from Christianists and other traditionalist American moralists.

    There is something macho about your proposition, though. Before a recent transitional period in which men of my age began forgetting their lives, there would have been a bunch of men I could have chuckled sympathetically if I said, "It's cancer, you don't just walk it off." These days, not so much. (Hint: It's psychological.)

    †​

    And speaking of forgetting our manly lives, I actually had a #WhatAboutTheMen moment, yesterday. I thought about a man a bit older than me, who once responded to a critique of sexual harassment and violence in cinema by saying he had never seen rape glorified in movies. And, you know, I'll even accept his term, the glorification of rape, because there always were obvious examples, and Retroplex ran Revenge of the Nerds yesterday. I'm guessing it's a sad coincidence to run a rape comedy coinciding with a nationwide women's protest, but only because the people who might actually do so intentionally generally pretend themselves so stupid, and so persistently, I've decided to believe them, and that would preclude them from knowing to set it up as such. But, yeah. Revenge of the Nerds. It really is a strange notion to think an entire cinematic period could pass and someone who lived through the period and shares the same values that made such "comedy" laudable would not have noticed. Such are the things we are expected to believe.

    But, yes, I did take time to think about the men, yesterday, in part because I happened to notice Retroplex was running Revenge of the Nerds.
     
  12. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    Probably based on this:

    Sounds like peer pressure to me...otherwise, why would she be worried about being "seen to be sitting this one out" when she should be focusing on (hopefully) healing and regaining her strength...

    For that matter - why the attempted character assassination against another member for what was a rather simple observation made on the context provided...? Do you look to perceive slight wherever you can, as justification for such attacks? Do you really find it that difficult to conceive that, maybe, someone was thinking it would be better to put an ailing woman's immediate health in higher priority than attending a protest that could easily expose her to sickness whilst her immune system is potentially weakened from therapy?
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Wow.
     
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  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You do realize, do you not—

    —you make my point for me?

    Just sayin'.
     
  15. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    So much speaking, so little being said, and yet you feel the need to attack others.

    Bravo, Tiassa. Bravo.
     
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  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You speak a lot for her. What lies ahead, what she'll face, what concerns her.

    (If only we knew what actually concerns her!)


    Oh wait. We do. Sculptor said what her actual concerns were. She's concerned about her health.

    Yet you saddle her with a whole pile of baggage that you think she has - or ought to have. Contrary to listening to her own concerns about her health. She said she's going because of what other people think.


    You ignore the person in favor of your predicted version of what the person ought to be. You are guilty of objectifying her.




    Another thread that's had the hate bomb dropped on it. leaving nothing salvageable in its wake.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Um, Dave? That's not what it says. You made that up.

    Furthermore, follow the subsequent discussion:

    (So would I. In fact, it is the most likely possibility barring explicit evidence to the other.)

    (Indeed. Perhaps.)

    Well, Dave, you apparently refuse the possibility that she answers herself. As I said:

    If you want us to consider this being about what other people think, then like I said, the pressure to walk because other people might think poorly of her most likely isn't coming from her sisters; it comes from criticism such as Kittamaru put forth:

    Like I said, we must consider she will not be seen sitting this one out because it means this much to her.

    That would be perfectly human behavior.

    But, hey, it just isn't as exciting, is it, as the alternative? What is that? A "pile of baggage"? Melodrama? A "hate bomb"?
     
  18. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    Mm, right, just gonna leave that one alone - speaks for itself, really, and further commentary would just detract from the carnage - like narrating a train meeting a tornado.
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    From whom?

    "She will be seen to sit this one out".. Note what is missing in that sentence that would suggest that there was external peer pressure.

    I'll give you a hint. The important word missing starts with the letter "o". It is also part of a title of a movie staring Nicole Kidman and little ghostly children scaring the wits out of everyone.

    Had sculptor said "she will be seen (by) [______] to sit this one out", then the peer pressure argument might have had a point.

    What sculptor essentially said was that she did not want to give the impression that she is sitting this one out. In other words, there are no expectations or pressure that she attended the march, aside from the pressure or expectations she had for herself. The march is voluntary.

    Or perhaps, just perhaps, she should decide what she wants to do for herself without expectations from others in regards to what she ought to do because she is sick?

    Perhaps, just perhaps, getting out and about, walking alongside women for something she cares about, can be an uplifting experience and a distraction from what she is enduring? Perhaps it can serve to also highlight the plight of women like her and access to healthcare?

    I am certain she has her reasons for wanting to attend the march and lend her voice. That is entirely her choice and her right.
    The context was not provided, but added in by another member to suit his narrative.

    For example, his context gives the impression that women were pressuring her to march. When sculptor's comment gave no such impression.

    She is the one who decided to march. There is no evidence to suggest that others were pressuring her to march.

    And there really needs to be an end to people telling others what they should be doing in regards to how they handle their chemo. To the one, it's annoying as hell. She knows what she wants and what she is capable of. If she wants to march, then that is her decision and her right. To the other, she's not a child but a grown woman who can decide for herself. She set the expectation on herself to march.

    I mean, my god, if she's up to doing it, and she wants to do it, then it's her decision. Getting out and about is a terrific distraction from chemo. And depending on what kind of chemo she has, such as infusion and then a pump for a few days and a week or so off, those days when you aren't hooked up to the chemo and you are able to manage your nausea and diarrhea, just getting out and about in public like a normal person does a lot for your morale and psyche. Just talking to other people who aren't there with you daily and caring for you, is a boost to the brain. Just being able to focus on something that isn't the cancer or chemo and radio, is encouraging. I mean shit, chemo nurses encourage patients to get out and about, to go away for long weekends or a few days holiday somewhere in between doses, to refresh the mind because one's mental health is so important during chemo (the chemicals basically nuke the brain, can lead to severe depression, and all that entails). This whole 'she should stay home and regain her strength'.. If she's up to it and wants to do it, then good on her! If she's not, then good on her! It was her call and will always be her call.

    The women's march is about empowerment and self determination. She chose to march. That's her call. The pressure was self inflicted, if you will.
     
  20. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    If she is worried she will "be seen", does that not imply the "by others", especially given the context:

    So sculptor's spouse is going to the march. Said spouse is taking the cancer survivor and granddaughter. Presumably, she asked said survivor to attend with her (though it is possible she was asked by said survivor to come bring her).

    Given the worry of said survivor is "being seen" as "sitting this one out"... being seen by whom?

    The implied meaning would appear to be a third party... thus, peer pressure.

    Of course, if that is incorrect, then we are still left with an odd occurrence - How is any of that an "attack on women", as Tiassa suggested:
    It would seem that this is a case where any comment, no matter the intended (or even actual) meaning, can be used for character assassination...

    EDIT to add -
    So, if the case were to be that she was asked to attend, and found herself unable to say "no" because of a fear of others thinking she is "sitting this one out"... then what? If this pressure is not self inflicted... what then?
     
  21. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    It would seem that the question obtains:
    Why go to a rally, march, sit-in or candle-light vigil(etc)?
     
  22. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    [Stupid Forum Software]
     
  23. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Or, is the question if you agree with it?
     

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