9/11: are there a few irrefutable facts that prove what kind of event it was?

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PROOF: There is no purported evidence of ...

Again: all you've done so far is find what you consider discrepancies in the official account of the incident. You have yet to show any evidence that now points toward your account of things. Without that there is still about a million bits of evidence that verify the official account, even if you take issue with a dozen or a few elements of it.

So here is the tally so far:

Official account:
For: about a million data points of facts
Against: a dozen or two discrepancies based on personal suspicious feelings, no facts or expertise

Petra's theory:
For: zero offered
Against: not applicable (there are no data points offered for falsification)

And just to complete the list:

Other even more outlandish theories (aliens, ghosts, etc):
For: zero offered
Against: not applicable (there are no data points offered for falsification)
(notice the striking quantitative similarity with Petra's theory, above)

So, you tell us which theory is the most plausible?
- 1 million divided by 24* = ~41,000+
- zero divided by n/a = undefined

*and I'm being danged generous giving them full points

I've made my case.
No you haven't. All you've done is question some facts. You have made no case!

State one piece of evidence that supports your theory. A leaked doc laying out the plan? A confession? A dead body come back to life? A piece of airplane? A bit of explosive? Anything?

What makes your theory any more plausible than, say, leprechauns (for which, it seems, there is as just much evidence.)

all you have to do is blow away the propaganda dust to see the truth).
And when are you going to do that for us?

(I feel that soon you're going to run away, convincing yourself that you were chased away by mockery and misunderstanding. Well, you're not. We are not convinced, and backing up why we are not convinced. If you run away, it's because you know your case is not made.)
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No one really thinks he will.

Whenever I enter into a debate with someone like this, I have zero faith that logic or evidence will change their minds. However, these threads are read by other people. And some rational but misinformed people may read it as well and learn something.
This isn't a debate. It's a shitshow. People who read will either already be conspiracy nutjobs like the one who started this thread, or will already know better. No reader will change their position. The best "education" this site could do for this abhorrent nonsense is to close it down before it even starts, and let people be "educated" about how distasteful and abhorrent delusional theories are dealt with. Not by facilitating their crap and becoming a site where it is "discussed".
Maybe this site is so short of posts that it stoops to accommodating this sort of insult, but, hey, if this place wants to become known for hosting even the worst and foulest of conspiracy theories, and attract their ilk in the absence of anything remotely decent, then sure, go for it. I guess if you wanted to be a salubrious street but end up becoming a gutter where you're happy to tell people why pissing on the walls is bad, all the while watching them do just that... as long as you get the foot traffic, right. Appealing to other people that might read as an excuse to continue is nothing but a cop-out. "Well, at least anyone seeing us telling them not to piss on the walls will know not to piss on the walls. Unless they want to piss on the walls, that is!"

Seriously, it's abhorrent. It's insulting. It craps on the memory of all those that have died in such tragic events. This thread should not be tolerated.
Please, moderators, close it. It has surely served its purpose ten-fold. Leaving it open only sullies any name and decency this site might still have.
Please post on topic.
“Some guys,” the big man said, “has got wrong ideas about when to get tough.” He turned to me.
“Yeah,” he said. “Let’s you and me nibble one.”

https://ia600207.us.archive.org/30/...ly/Raymond Chandler - Farewell, My Lovely.pdf

page 9, the 2nd paragraph bottom-up


Julius, let me tell you something about America:
Nobody likes a smart ass, all right?


Twins (1988 film)
No reader will change their position.
I had a similar discussion years ago about the same topic on another forum, and I got two messages from people saying "thanks, I hadn't thought about that." So sometimes it does happen.
The best "education" this site could do for this abhorrent nonsense is to close it down before it even starts, and let people be "educated" about how distasteful and abhorrent delusional theories are dealt with.
I find that the approach to censor anything that disagrees with the 'correct' view is counterproductive. Your mileage may differ.
Would you say you can identify one or more irrefutable facts that essentially prove what kind of event it was. If so, what are they? Even if you think there are a large number of irrefutable facts what would you put forward as being the only ones required for proof if you think only a small number is required.

No, no. You should always begin by prattling something about social justice, and the postcolonial resentments of marginalized population groups regarding Western culture and thinking.

IOW, about how your _X_ contrarian view also has something to do with fighting systemic oppression and the privileged. Even if the connection between your conspiracy and the aforementioned may require the extreme pliability of a contortionist in order to get there.

That's the key to coaxing the brains of young scholars and scientists to fall out. Truly viable and proliferating fashionable nonsense must be crouched in morally pretentious crusaderism.

Be sure to sprinkle all the prettified, neo-crypto-Marxist slogans of the leftangelical apologist industry in there. That reciprocal network between humanities scholars and social science research seems all the more daunting and glowing with the might of its "terrorism of obscurantism" when you utilize the full armada of sophistical gibberish outputted by today's intellectual class and its [now] sci-tech sycophant grunts.
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So sometimes it does happen.
Not with people like the OPer.
I find that the approach to censor anything that disagrees with the 'correct' view is counterproductive. Your mileage may differ.
There have to be exceptions, for simple decency, respect, and so as not to facilitate a continuing mental illness.
It is factual that planes struck the two towers, that children died at Sandy Hook. They are beyond dispute. Disagreeing with that is delusion. A mental illness. I don't have issue with conspiracy theories about the why of things, or some minor detail that might still be disputed, but to claim that these two specifically didn't happen? That's a different story entirely.
If you can't see that, and just think I'm looking to censor anything that disagrees with the "correct" view shows a lack of thought or appreciation on your part as to what I'm arguing, and why I'm arguing for it in these cases.
The arguments against the conspiracy have been given.
The abhorrence, distastefulness, and lack of respect for the victims that the OPer has shown is clear for all.
Nothing else will be served by continuing this thread other than to give a platform to the vile outpourings of a mentally ill person.
You should all be ashamed of yourself for engaging with it any longer.


If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it.


Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.


We have the best government that money can buy.


All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.



Mark Twain
Tom Dobbs:

... The fact that we can laugh is
wonderful. But the last few years we've been divided.
Red states, blue states.
There are no red and blue states, there's only the
United States of America. That's what we're about.
That's why I say you can't spend 200 million dollars
on a campaign and not be owing people something.
Next thing you know
they have to deal with the special interests,
they're doing special favors for special people
and not dealing with what you need:
Education, healthcare, environmental issues.
They have to deal with oil companies, chemical
companies, drug companies, and they owe them.
And in the process, people get neglected.
The poor have no advocate,
because the poor can't afford a lobbyist.
The Statue of Liberty says,
"Give me your tired, your poor,"
not "your wealthy, your gifted and your endowed. "

Man of the Year (2006)
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Moderator note:

Petra Liverani has been permanently banned from sciforums.

This thread is now closed.

sciforums is under no obligation to provide a platform for the spreading of deeply offensive and harmful conspiracy theories. Since it seems highly unlikely in this case that the person concerned will listen to sense, or post on any topics not related to her fixation on such theories, there is no point in our retaining her as a member.

This poster has Gish Galloped her way through this thread, flitting from one conspiracy theory to the next, while consistently failing to provide any positive evidence of any actual conspiracies.

For any who are interested, the events of 9/11 were extensively discussed here at the time they occurred, and those discussions are still available. Similarly, as the inevitable conspiracy theories emerged, they were repeatedly and thoroughly debunked here. However, readers should be aware that there are much better sources of reliable information on 9/11. There were several extensive investigations of the events, conducted by experts, with findings publically released and extensively reported. The only conspiracy in evidence is the conspiracy of members of Al Qaida to hijack commercial aircraft and crash them into buildings, which resulted in significant loss of life.

The events of Sandy Hook are also well documented (elsewhere). On the conspiracy front, conspiracy theorists should take special note of the prosecution of Alex Jones, who was among those who most vigorously promoted conspiracy theories surrounding those events.

The Moon Landings have 50 years of documentation and discussion, including many extensive debunkings of conspiracy theories surrounding them.

Conspiracy theorists: please educate yourselves. But, more importantly, be aware of the all the people you are harming when you make unfounded claims that the dead did not die or did not exist, or similar. Learn to have some empathy; think about how you would feel if it was your child, or brother, or mother, who died, and people on the internet who weren't there and who have no personal connection to the events start contacting you to tell you that you are a liar and the events did not happen as described. These things are not a game meant for your entertainment. There are real people who suffer real harms as a result of your fractured understanding of the events and your willingness to trust fundamentally unreliable information sources.
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