9/11 Conspiracy Thread (There can be only one!)

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I don't know why Steven Jones was put on leave, perhaps you could link me to a non-conspiracy theory website so I can find out this information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

KennyJC said:
I do know that Kevin Ryan was fired as he represented his views as the views of the company.

No, he didn't. From "The Terror Conspiracy", page 54:
Although Ryan made it clear that he was speaking only for himself, not his company, his employers' reaction was decisive. On November 22, 2004, the South Bend Tribune carried this headline, "South Bend firm's lab director fired after questioning federal probe." UL officials denied any testing of the WTC steel and said Ryan was terminated because his letter was written "without UL's knowledge or authorization."


KennyJC said:
He didn't even have any expertise in steel as his position was in water treatment.

The guy was a director/manager in the lab that tested the steel used in the WTC buildings. I don't know how much he knew initially, but he did have this to say:
"You may know that there are a number of current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth..."
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911kevinrryanfired

In other words, he may not have known enough when things started, but by the time he wrote the letters, it seems like he definitely did. And he's gone much further since:
WTC Collapse: The Science
Scientists Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan have combined efforts to produce the most in-depth analysis of the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings yet accomplished! This unique video consists of two complete, fully edited presentations on one DVD!

Dr. Steven E. Jones, professor of physics at BYU, thoroughly and definitively debunks the FEMA and NIST reports promoted by the U.S. government. His analysis of the collapse of World Trade Center leads to only one conclusion -- all three buildings were demolished with thermite and explosives. Jones discusses building 7 in detail, since over half the population of America does not know that it too collapsed on 9/11.

Kevin Ryan, former lab manager and scientist at Underwriters Labs, the company that tested the steel used in the World Trade Center buildings, was fired by UL when he went public with information about the cover-up. He explains in detail why the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the World Trade Center collapses is false.

KennyJC said:
As for me, I'm not a republican. I hate the republicans, I hate Bush, I hate Sarah Palin, and the South is full of fucking retards. I'm not keen on Obama either, but I guess you have to pick the best of a bad bunch.

I've heard that Obama could use a few improvements myself, but I like to think that he'll be a fairly good president. Ofcourse, I think that Bill Clinton was a fairly good president. And no, I don't think he should have lied to his family or his wife about 'that woman', but there were no colossal terrorist attacks or wars during his watch; a botched WTC basement bombing and a brief Somali conflict was about as far as it got.


KennyJC said:
Can you accept that it was wrong of Richard Gage to compare the WTC to a cardboard box?

No, because I don't think it was wrong. I sincerely believe that a steel columned building would be a little more resistant then cardboard, so if anything, I think his model should have been made of sturdier stuff. I think anyone could agree that cardboard building could have easily burnt down to the ground, although it wouldn't have done so without a whole lot more fire then was observed on 9/11. But the WTC buildings were made out of steel and concrete and this type of thing clearly didn't happen. Anyway, if you want to technical arguments as to why it was essentially impossible for the WTC buildings to collapse due to fire, you need look no further then the link I have consistently posted here on that, namely this one:
http://physics911.net/stevenjones

If you've only got the patience for a cardboard box demonstration, however.. well, it's a good start I guess.
 
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From wiki -
The university cited its concern about the "increasingly speculative and accusatory nature" of Jones' work and the concern that perhaps it had "not been published in appropriate scientific venues" as reasons for putting him under review. The review was to have been conducted at three levels: BYU administration, the College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, and the Physics Department.[30]

Look, a university is hardly a place that would want to rock the boat with high up government officials. All that government funding.. just wouldn't do to be accusing organizations like NIST of doing shoddy work. So sure, they'll say that he didn't publish in 'appropriate' venues and turn a blind eye that those venues are probably the same ones that would have turned down his work without thinking much about it because hey, they're probably sponsored by corporate and or government interests as well...


The psychology behind people’s desires for conspiracies is interesting. Perhaps people just want their monotonous lives to be more interesting. Yes even if that means that they may not be as safe, at least life is more exciting and it gives them a mission.

Yeah, it's real exciting believing that the government of the most powerful nation in the world played a part in killing its own people. Then again, it does explain its callousness in foreign countries for commodities such as oil (if this is what they do to their own...)

I could say that the psychology behind someone's desire for the official story to be true is understandable; people want to feel safe and believing that the government played any part in what happened on 9/11 doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the safety of one's country.


If this evidence is so strong it will stand up to the scrutiny. It’s not like there hasn’t been time either.

It does, but people have to seriously look at it. And for that to happen.. people still believe that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy. It may take a very long time...

Originally Posted by scott3x
I have already posted many examples of experts who have been condemned by the authorities for daring to disagree with them. I think the most important thing is to not authority figures usurp one's power to use one's own mind to search for the truth. I'm not even an 'expert' but with a little research I came to easily see the holes of the official story and I was pointing them out in a few threads before they were all tangled together in this 'mighty tangle'. No one responded to the weak spots of the official story, but instead started questioning the credentials of those who questioned things.

That is not true and you know it scott.

No one has been dodging your posts scott.

More like dodging certain points within them.



Yes, and I even commented on the fact that it was thoroughly confusing. But I don't blame you for not seeing that in this 'mighty tangle'.
 
So why not simply delete all the stupid conspiracy posts and permaban the idiot conspiracy theorists?

Well I can certainly agree that there's nothing like censorship to silence people who don't agree with you.

Personally, I go more for the following:
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall

I don't believe you eradicate bad ideas by censoring them but rather by showing their logical flaws. Clearly we're on different sides as to which arguments are flawed, but I believe this reasoning should hold regardless of who's right here.
 
Look, a university is hardly a place that would want to rock the boat with high up government officials. All that government funding.. just wouldn't do to be accusing organizations like NIST of doing shoddy work. So sure, they'll say that he didn't publish in 'appropriate' venues and turn a blind eye that those venues are probably the same ones that would have turned down his work without thinking much about it because hey, they're probably sponsored by corporate and or government interests as well...


Yeah, it's real exciting believing that the government of the most powerful nation in the world played a part in killing its own people. Then again, it does explain its callousness in foreign countries for commodities such as oil (if this is what they do to their own...)

I could say that the psychology behind someone's desire for the official story to be true is understandable; people want to feel safe and believing that the government played any part in what happened on 9/11 doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the safety of one's country.
No, believing the official story doesn’t make you feel safer. Then you would believe that it is possible for religious extremists to be able to slip though the security measures so easily. That was the real problem here. The US government with all their resources had an indication that this could happen and did not do enough. However this all gets overlooked in the nonsense about free fall and invisible bombs in the basement that don’t do anything.

It does, but people have to seriously look at it.
Are you seriously looking at it?

When every point is debunked you just bring up another one. When this happens for long enough you then pause and then say that it is obvious that there was a conspiracy.

More like dodging certain points within them.


Yes, and I even commented on the fact that it was thoroughly confusing. But I don't blame you for not seeing that in this 'mighty tangle'.
So not a good look then.

Have you looked at http://www.debunking911.com, http://www.911myths.com or http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Here for a list of sceptical sites http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18

You can be fairly sure that everything you have brought up, or are going to bring up, has been addressed before.
 
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Whitehouse Spokesman Dana Perino says that Osama Bil Laden didn't mastermind 911. She said that Khalid Sheik Muhammad did, and he's in Jail. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wait Wait, let me guess, so now you guys think K.S.M was behind 911? AHAHAHAHAAHA the white house just debunked your all of your theories. AHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwb2EuzGN4
 
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Whitehouse Spokesman Dana Perino says that Osama Bin Laden didn't mastermind 911. She said that Khalid Sheik Muhammad did, and he's in Jail. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wait Wait, let me guess, so now you guys think K.S.M was behind 911? AHAHAHAHAAHA the white house just debunked your all of your theories. AHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwb2EuzGN4

Well atleast the government's giving up its hopeless case that Osama organized 9/11. The faked video where he claims to have done it was probably the icing on the cake of its demise and it may even be that they're now accusing this sheikh in an effort to take attention away from the fact that even the FBI never claimed to have enough evidence to accuse him of conspiring on 9/11. Anyway, since the guy is already in prison, they could perhaps torture him to get him to confess to whatever it is they want him to confess to.

One thing I will say, however. Dana Perino doesn't look like one of those people who know the truth but is too sly to tell us. She seems more like the 'doe caught in the headlights' type. I must admit she's nice on the eyes. I've been reading up on her and it seems that she wanted Bush Jr. in the whitehouse 2 years before he actually ran (http://www.uiaa.org/spfld/magazine/stxt0708.html).

Anyway, I think that if anyone could be said to be someone who actually believes the Bush administration's lies within the white house itself, she'd be a prime candidate. I think the article below essentially sums things up:
http://www.236.com/news/2007/12/12/are_you_smarter_than_a_white_h_1_2886.php

I simply don't think that she should be dismissed. The article itself hints at a compelling reason why; I believe that many americans don't know any more then she does. Reporters can work at educating her as well as the many who are still in the dark on so many things.
 

So he was basically placed on paid leave because he gained notoriety as a conspiracy nut? Seems reasonable.

No, he didn't. From "The Terror Conspiracy", page 54:

Although Ryan made it clear that he was speaking only for himself, not his company, his employers' reaction was decisive. On November 22, 2004, the South Bend Tribune carried this headline, "South Bend firm's lab director fired after questioning federal probe." UL officials denied any testing of the WTC steel and said Ryan was terminated because his letter was written "without UL's knowledge or authorization."

I'd fire him too. Not only were his claims completely false, but he was making claims outside his field and the company wouldn't want anything to do with conspiracy theorists.

The guy was a director/manager in the lab that tested the steel used in the WTC buildings. I don't know how much he knew initially, but he did have this to say:

I'm pretty sure this is the guy I read about that has no qualification in steel testing and his expertise was in water treatment.

In other words, he may not have known enough when things started, but by the time he wrote the letters, it seems like he definitely did. And he's gone much further since:

Ryan and Jones are unpublished kooks who are rejected by the scientific community. Their claims can be debunked easily even by non-scientists who do just a little bit of fact checking. It really is as simple as that. If these guys are the best appeals to authority you can muster, you have nothing.

No, because I don't think it was wrong. I sincerely believe that a steel columned building would be a little more resistant then cardboard, so if anything, I think his model should have been made of sturdier stuff.

The WTC was infinitely heavier than a cardboard box and exerted infinitely more kinetic energy.

Again, it's like comparing toy car collisions to highway collisions. Why do toy car collisions display no damage and yet real cars do?
 
The faked video where he claims to have done it was probably the icing on the cake of its demise

Perhaps you should watch the whole video which is 30-40 minutes long instead of focusing on a single screenshot which is amongst the poorest quality of the entire video.

Anyway, in the video he released in 2004 he admitted it was his idea. I suppose you will say this was fake too?

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than 500 billion dollars.
 
So he was basically placed on paid leave because he gained notoriety as a conspiracy nut? Seems reasonable.

Trust it to you to phrase things that way. I'll warrant he knows a lot more then most on the physics of 9/11. I firmly believe the problem is as I mentioned; the university doesn't want to be seen as accusing the current administration of any wrongdoing for political reasons.


I'd fire him too. Not only were his claims completely false...

Or atleast that's what you believe.

but he was making claims outside his field and the company wouldn't want anything to do with conspiracy theorists.

In terms of making 'claims outside his field', I have already made it clear that he was a lab director in the company that tested the safety of the WTC steel, even though they seem to now being denying even this. There is also the detail that he was a scientist and while he may not have been the one who personally tested the steel, it's well known that NIST tested steel after the fact and found that it didn't collapse after 2 hours of temperatures of 800C. There is also another issue; in combination with Steven Jones, who he's done work with, they have come upon evidence from many, many experts. But you don't seem interested in looking in that.


Ryan and Jones are unpublished...

Believe me, they're published. Maybe not in NIST type places, but they're published.


kooks who are rejected by the scientific community.

Wrong and I've linked to many sites by scientists that reject the official story, but you seem to be turning a blind eye to this.


Their claims can be debunked easily even by non-scientists who do just a little bit of fact checking.

I'd argue that it's the other way around; NIST has been easily debunked with the help of people such as Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan to compile all the information that is available on the flaws to the official story. But if you don't look at evidence they've compiled, you won't see this ofcourse.


It really is as simple as that. If these guys are the best appeals to authority you can muster, you have nothing.

I've cited many more but you seem to be ignoring them all.


The WTC was infinitely heavier than a cardboard box and exerted infinitely more kinetic energy.

No, not 'infinitely'. It was certainly heavier, but its supports were a lot stronger then a cardboard box too. Kevin, why won't you just read Steven Jones critique of the official story?


Again, it's like comparing toy car collisions to highway collisions. Why do toy car collisions display no damage and yet real cars do?

In the case of metal toy cars, I do believe that scaled, they are indeed built stronger as models then as the real thing.
 
Perhaps you should watch the whole video which is 30-40 minutes long instead of focusing on a single screenshot which is amongst the poorest quality of the entire video.

What I've seen is enough, thanks.


Anyway, in the video he released in 2004 he admitted it was his idea. I suppose you will say this was fake too?

I believe I was referring to the 2004 one. If you have both links I can give them a once over.


I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than 500 billion dollars.

Something coming to his mind is not the same thing as something he did. In any case, even the government no longer believes Osama Bin Laden masterminded it, so you can't even rely on them for support.
 
I'll be sure to tell my cousins that this is all a big mistake, a plot by the US government. I'm sure they will agree that their mom died in a faked disaster. I will also tell a union brother's family that when he stepped outside the pentagon's door for a smoke and got hit by an airplane, that it wasn't a real act of terrorism. I'm positive they will all actually be willing to believe that Alqaeda was not responsible.

Fucktards.
 
I'll be sure to tell my cousins that this is all a big mistake, a plot by the US government. I'm sure they will agree that their mom died in a faked disaster. I will also tell a union brother's family that when he stepped outside the pentagon's door for a smoke and got hit by an airplane, that it wasn't a real act of terrorism. I'm positive they will all actually be willing to believe that Alqaeda was not responsible.

I'd like to hear more of this 'union brother', seeing as how there seems to be a fair amount of evidence that the pentagon was hit by a missile not a plane. Anyway, perhaps Al Queda played a part, even though even the U.S. government no longer believes that Osama Bin Laden was the mastermind behind it. But this doesn't mean that it wasn't an inside job, meaning that there were rogue elements that played a part; such as placing explosives in the WTC buildings.
 
I'll be sure to tell my cousins that this is all a big mistake, a plot by the US government.

For evidence, ask them to refer to the Tonkin Gulf incident, and Operation Northwoods.


I'm sure they will agree that their mom died in a faked disaster.

The only person who alleged it was fake was you? Why would you dishonor your cousins mother? Don't you have any shame?



I will also tell a union brother's family that when he stepped outside the pentagon's door for a smoke and got hit by an airplane, that it wasn't a real act of terrorism. I'm positive they will all actually be willing to believe that Alqaeda was not responsible.

Fucktards.

Your are the first one in this thread to allege that the terrorists attacks were fake? What evidence do you have to support this? We're not discussing if a terroist attack occured, we're debating who was behind it. I know you're incapable of discerning the difference between the two. But I'm here to help you if needed.
 
I'd like to hear more of this 'union brother', seeing as how there seems to be a fair amount of evidence that the pentagon was hit by a missile not a plane.
If you choose to ignore the witnesses who saw a plane, the light poles knocked down and the wreckage from a 757...

Surely this stupid theory is ridiculed even by conspiracy theorists.
 
What I've seen is enough, thanks.

If you have both links I can give them a once over.
Scott, could you just confirm you don't work in the oil industry. I just want to avoid the risk of hiring you by accident. We don't like to employ people who are unaware of how to carry out a thorough examination of evidence.
 
Scott, could you just confirm you don't work in the oil industry. I just want to avoid the risk of hiring you by accident. We don't like to employ people who are unaware of how to carry out a thorough examination of evidence.

So you're an employer in the oil industry? Interesting. Your business has certainly benefitted from the sky high oil prices, that's for sure. Last I heard, the Bush administration was trying to get some sweetheart oil deals in Iraq too, but I'm not sure how that's going. Perhaps you would be more informed on such things?

Anyway, no, I'm not in the oil industry. In regards to evidence, your examination of the evidence is rather sad, but the fact that you can't even show evidence to support your own stance is, to me, even sadder.
 
If you choose to ignore the witnesses who saw a plane

Or thought that they saw a plane. As I've mentioned before, few people have seen a missile in flight.

the light poles knocked down

There was testimony from one person that only one pole was knocked down from the actual craft. As to the rest, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to pull a few more down to give a superficial appearance that a plane came down.


and the wreckage from a 757...

Fairly little wreckage that many people feel was planted.
 
Trust it to you to phrase things that way. I'll warrant he knows a lot more then most on the physics of 9/11. I firmly believe the problem is as I mentioned; the university doesn't want to be seen as accusing the current administration of any wrongdoing for political reasons.

No, the university didn't want a known crackpot to be held responsible for teaching its students. Pure and simple:

Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".

A view shared by just about every single structural engineering expert who has looked into the issue.

The BYU physics department has also issued a statement: "The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones' hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU's own faculty members. Professor Jones' department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review."

A view shared by just about every single physicist who has looked into the issue.

Or atleast that's what you believe.

That's what I know. If you had any honesty, you would know it too. When I was a kid, I knew the WWF wrestling was fake, but I believed it was real.

There is also another issue; in combination with Steven Jones, who he's done work with, they have come upon evidence from many, many experts. But you don't seem interested in looking in that.

So many scholars in the world, so many experts in the relevant fields and yet you can only produce a handful of 'experts' to support your claims. Most of which don't even have expertise in the required fields. Doesn't matter though, they can be easily debunked by the casual researcher.

Believe me, they're published. Maybe not in NIST type places, but they're published.

Not published and approved in the relevant journals that would earn them respectability.

Wrong and I've linked to many sites by scientists that reject the official story, but you seem to be turning a blind eye to this.

You linked a handful of websites with a handful of 'experts'. On close inspection you realise that they are hardly experts at all. Just because you may have a Ph.D in farting doesn't mean you can make claims relating to physics, demolition and civil engineering.

No, not 'infinitely'. It was certainly heavier, but its supports were a lot stronger then a cardboard box too. Kevin, why won't you just read Steven Jones critique of the official story?

It may as well be infinite, such is the difference between the force a falling cardboard box emparts compared the thousands of tons of building collapsing.

In the case of metal toy cars, I do believe that scaled, they are indeed built stronger as models then as the real thing.

The outercasing of a toy car remains more fragile than the shell of a real car. So why is one damaged and the other not when collided when a solid object?

I believe I was referring to the 2004 one. If you have both links I can give them a once over.

Well you do realize that the 2004 video were first shown by Aljazeera and accepted as genuine? I don't think Aljazeera would be willing to take part in any American cover-up. Do you?

Something coming to his mind is not the same thing as something he did. In any case, even the government no longer believes Osama Bin Laden masterminded it, so you can't even rely on them for support.

It's funny watching you be so stupid to try and keep your fantasy intact.

It's always been unknown how much Bin Laden directly had to do with planning 9/11, but as he is the head of the organisation that carried out the attacks, you have to admit that he is still the prime target.
 
No, the university didn't want a known crackpot to be held responsible for teaching its students. Pure and simple:

Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".

A view shared by just about every single structural engineering expert who has looked into the issue.

You have any evidence that that's so or do you just like making claims up from thin air? I, on the other hand, have already provided a website of architects and engineers who disagree with the official story. From their website:
474 architectural and engineering professionals
and 2337 other supporters including A&E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.

http://www.ae911truth.org/



The BYU physics department has also issued a statement: "The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones' hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU's own faculty members. Professor Jones' department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review."

Look, I haven't heard Steven Jones' side to the story, but I can easily imagine that the 'relevant scientific venues' are full of NIST types who are beholden to government and corporate interests. Kind of like doctors are frequently beholden to pharmaceutical interests.


A view shared by just about every single physicist who has looked into the issue.

Another claim out of thin air?

Or atleast that's what you believe.

That's what I know.

Prove it.


If you had any honesty, you would know it too.

So now you're a telepath and 'know' that I'm being dishonest.


When I was a kid, I knew the WWF wrestling was fake, but I believed it was real.

For me, I either believed something was real or it was fake. No halfway about it. I could have doubts, but then that would mean I wasn't sure which it was.


So many scholars in the world, so many experts in the relevant fields and yet you can only produce a handful of 'experts' to support your claims.

Look, unlike NIST types who get lots of cash to come up with creative lies, people who disagree with the government's view can and have at times gotten fired.


Most of which don't even have expertise in the required fields. Doesn't matter though, they can be easily debunked by the casual researcher.

If that were true, this argument would have ended a long time ago. Anyway, I got to go.
 
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