I have been hearing about a debate going on regarding whether or not we should make it a national holiday. I think it would be good just because it would give people the day off to go and mourn if they want. I know this 9/11, I would like to take the day off just to be with my family and to mourn for the people that died and for the people that survived. Epecially people who have lost someone on 9/11 - which needless to say has got to be over 100,000 people. And millions more that were touched by this event. What do you all think? Are there any reasons why this would be a bad thing?
9/11 National Holiday?
- Thread starter *stRgrL*
- Start date
National holiday? "Holiday" has something of a festive meaning to it. It's not appropriate. We shouldn't be celebrating it.
A better way is for the gov't to declare a moment of silence in all institutions and companies, sort of, to honor the dead. Maybe five or ten minutes silence? And declare it a day of mourning, not a holiday.
A better way is for the gov't to declare a moment of silence in all institutions and companies, sort of, to honor the dead. Maybe five or ten minutes silence? And declare it a day of mourning, not a holiday.
Do you get a day off from work to mourn the Holocaust?
Do you get a day off from work to mourn Kosovo?
Do you get a day off from work to mourn....
I have a couple problems with this whole thing. I have a fear that it will become an annual event. I would be against that. My major fear was over talks of an international act for sept. 11th. Personally, I don't consider it major enough to warrant a yearly multination "holiday". Secondly, I find the constent talk of the acts are seeming more and more like praise to Osama. I believe it is necessary to continue studying international relations, but I don't consider sept 11th any more important to study or remember than Kosovo, Iraq....
Do you get a day off from work to mourn Kosovo?
Do you get a day off from work to mourn....
I have a couple problems with this whole thing. I have a fear that it will become an annual event. I would be against that. My major fear was over talks of an international act for sept. 11th. Personally, I don't consider it major enough to warrant a yearly multination "holiday". Secondly, I find the constent talk of the acts are seeming more and more like praise to Osama. I believe it is necessary to continue studying international relations, but I don't consider sept 11th any more important to study or remember than Kosovo, Iraq....
Very good point, if they make Sept 11. a national holiday - what about other events that have touched more peoples lives (ie. Holocaust, thousands upon thousands of people were forced to live in torture before death.)
Actually a holiday is a day of commemoration of an event. Meaning to serve as a memorial for. So, I think your thinking of New Years Eve or St. Pattys Day. All the rest are for honoring someone or something of great importance.
No, but we get a day off from work to mourn the death of Dr. Martin Luther King. And Christopher Columbus. And the birth of Christ.
No, I think you missed my original post. I said "national" - not multinational. And to the citizens of our nation I think it was major enough of event
Now this could pose a threat. Yet, it seems like every year on this date, people will be gathering in churches or in NY to mourn and remember - so it will be an attraction either way.
I just think it would be a good idea to honor these people - especially the police, paramedics and firefighters who died trying to help others. Maybe it could be a holiday to honor those helping others. We should all get the day off and go out and volunteer or give blood or donate....
"No, I think you missed my original post. I said "national" - not multinational. And to the citizens of our nation I think it was major enough of event"
And I said I have a fear of this becoming multinational. Don't take things out of context.
"No, but we get a day off from work to mourn the death of Dr. Martin Luther King. And Christopher Columbus. And the birth of Christ"
Birth of Christ is a tradition that's not exactly about to change. Columbus' birthday is a joke of a holiday. A man gets lost and then kills people by the barrel full and you praise him? As for King having a holiday - good.
And, to continue a point made by another poster, there was much fear of terrorist attack for July 4th (which is basically America Day). What do you think will happen if you make Terrorists Killed Us Day?
And I said I have a fear of this becoming multinational. Don't take things out of context.
"No, but we get a day off from work to mourn the death of Dr. Martin Luther King. And Christopher Columbus. And the birth of Christ"
Birth of Christ is a tradition that's not exactly about to change. Columbus' birthday is a joke of a holiday. A man gets lost and then kills people by the barrel full and you praise him? As for King having a holiday - good.
And, to continue a point made by another poster, there was much fear of terrorist attack for July 4th (which is basically America Day). What do you think will happen if you make Terrorists Killed Us Day?
"Germany has a day of mourning for the holocoust victims, right?"
No, they don't. Personally, I don't believe in having single days off to remember events such as the Holocaust or the terrorist attacks on the U.S.. These events should be studied in full and understood thrughout schooling.
However, as individuals very few of us will make the choice to respect and pay tribute to members of our war struggles, perhaps these days are necessary to wake those of us up who don't bother to understand politics and the world around us.
Let me ask you star; how would you feel if the Germans celebrated a day of memory to honour their men who fought in WWII? How do you think your nation, as a whole, and it's Republican government would feel letting German's honour the Nazi's? And how about WWI where there was no good guy/bad guy thing?
No, they don't. Personally, I don't believe in having single days off to remember events such as the Holocaust or the terrorist attacks on the U.S.. These events should be studied in full and understood thrughout schooling.
However, as individuals very few of us will make the choice to respect and pay tribute to members of our war struggles, perhaps these days are necessary to wake those of us up who don't bother to understand politics and the world around us.
Let me ask you star; how would you feel if the Germans celebrated a day of memory to honour their men who fought in WWII? How do you think your nation, as a whole, and it's Republican government would feel letting German's honour the Nazi's? And how about WWI where there was no good guy/bad guy thing?
on 9/11 i am setting up flogging stands in all the major cities
for a small fee my skilled staff will flagellate you to your hearts desire
we will also have a variety of artifacts for you to choose from in order to personalize and optimize the experience
these can also be purchased at very reasonable prices inhouse or online so you and your loved ones can remember 9/11 on the other 364 days of the year
please look out for us in your town and god bless america!
for a small fee my skilled staff will flagellate you to your hearts desire
we will also have a variety of artifacts for you to choose from in order to personalize and optimize the experience
these can also be purchased at very reasonable prices inhouse or online so you and your loved ones can remember 9/11 on the other 364 days of the year
please look out for us in your town and god bless america!
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Sorry, I read the posts quite fast.
Well then wouldnt it be honorable of us to start celebrating GREAT people who died trying to help others for no apparent reason then that was they felt compelled to do so. Not only were these paid figherfighters, police and paramedics who died, there was people going back inside trying to find others who were hurt. There were people volunteering their sevices to help others. There were doctors and ordinary citizens running towords the scenes to offer their help. This is honorable. This should be acknowledged.
Whoa, way off kilter boy. These werent a mass group of people running around gassing people to death. These were hardworking citizens who were trying to save lives. There is a huge difference. And if thats what they wanted to do in their own country - honoring miscreants - then they very well may do so. I would just choose not visit their country or buy their exports.
Sooo... other than it being an American holiday, is their anyone who would see something wrong with it? I havent heard much on the views of the people but I do know that 55 are against and only 45 or so, are for it. So, Im assuming that there are other reasons why it wouldnt be good. Anyone???
"Well then wouldnt it be honorable of us to start celebrating GREAT people who died trying to help others for no apparent reason then that was they felt compelled to do so. Not only were these paid figherfighters, police and paramedics who died, there was people going back inside trying to find others who were hurt. There were people volunteering their sevices to help others. There were doctors and ordinary citizens running towords the scenes to offer their help. This is honorable. This should be acknowledged."
Well you sure as hell aren't about to start honouring every civilian who runs into a fire to rescue someone with a holiday are you? You give them a heroes service and that is that. I believe quite a bit of hero-naming has been given to the firefighters and such who did honourable things on that day. And I am wholely against a service for those who died while in or around the World Trade Centre. I've even heard these people called American Heroes. Personally, I think we throw the word "hero" around far too often. A hero must have some honourable intentions. These people (keep in mind I'm not talking about the firefighters etc.) did nothing honourable. They went to work one day with zero idea whatsoever that they would die. If everyone who goes to work is a hero, or in some way honourable, then my dad deserves a service. Secondly, I believe mourning should be a personal thing. Mourning is about understanding and accepting the lose of a loved one(s). This is a difficult act to do, however, the people who lost a loved one(s) on sept. 11th in no way differ from those who lost a loved one(s) on any other day. I'm willing to bet they had just as many neighboors and relatives helping them deal with lose as any other human being gets. I see no reason anyone needs 320 million other people to stand up and say "sorry" to help them over their lose.
"Whoa, way off kilter boy. These werent a mass group of people running around gassing people to death. These were hardworking citizens who were trying to save lives. There is a huge difference"
Ah. Well I can see we will never, ever be able to properly debate. Let me put it to you this way star - the war on Vietnam was for many, an immoral and stupid act. However, people with this belief were left with two choices - 1) go to Canada and be a shame in your own country or 2) fight in the war and do what you have to do.
Now, obviously you don't know this, but the older generation of Germans who fought in WWII were, as a majority, against Hitler's racial views. The older civilians were also against his racial policies. The young generation of Germans (who were educated largely starting in 1934) had grown up knowing nothing but that their system was perfectly morally right. It's not hard to believe so many were so perfectly brainwashed. After all, if you don't allow any other kind of view to be taught, how are the children to actually know right from wrong (as our society views it)?
So here you have the old solidiers who are mearly fighting for their nations security (as, obviously, if Germany looses who knows what happens to Germans with the horrible treatment they received after WWII?) and brainwashed young men who figure they're risking their lives for the honourable purpose of furthering the Fatherland. And you're telling me this is less honourable than the Americans/Brits/Russians who were going out to fight to save their land (they werent fighting to save Jews)? How so? Because their intentions were less moral? But htat only holds if morals are objective, which they aren't. And the German boys, for all they knew their entire life, were much more honourable than the Americans/Brits/Rooskies.
And, thirdly, the Nazi solidiers had no say in the gasing and such that went on. That was ordered by men much higher up.
Well you sure as hell aren't about to start honouring every civilian who runs into a fire to rescue someone with a holiday are you? You give them a heroes service and that is that. I believe quite a bit of hero-naming has been given to the firefighters and such who did honourable things on that day. And I am wholely against a service for those who died while in or around the World Trade Centre. I've even heard these people called American Heroes. Personally, I think we throw the word "hero" around far too often. A hero must have some honourable intentions. These people (keep in mind I'm not talking about the firefighters etc.) did nothing honourable. They went to work one day with zero idea whatsoever that they would die. If everyone who goes to work is a hero, or in some way honourable, then my dad deserves a service. Secondly, I believe mourning should be a personal thing. Mourning is about understanding and accepting the lose of a loved one(s). This is a difficult act to do, however, the people who lost a loved one(s) on sept. 11th in no way differ from those who lost a loved one(s) on any other day. I'm willing to bet they had just as many neighboors and relatives helping them deal with lose as any other human being gets. I see no reason anyone needs 320 million other people to stand up and say "sorry" to help them over their lose.
"Whoa, way off kilter boy. These werent a mass group of people running around gassing people to death. These were hardworking citizens who were trying to save lives. There is a huge difference"
Ah. Well I can see we will never, ever be able to properly debate. Let me put it to you this way star - the war on Vietnam was for many, an immoral and stupid act. However, people with this belief were left with two choices - 1) go to Canada and be a shame in your own country or 2) fight in the war and do what you have to do.
Now, obviously you don't know this, but the older generation of Germans who fought in WWII were, as a majority, against Hitler's racial views. The older civilians were also against his racial policies. The young generation of Germans (who were educated largely starting in 1934) had grown up knowing nothing but that their system was perfectly morally right. It's not hard to believe so many were so perfectly brainwashed. After all, if you don't allow any other kind of view to be taught, how are the children to actually know right from wrong (as our society views it)?
So here you have the old solidiers who are mearly fighting for their nations security (as, obviously, if Germany looses who knows what happens to Germans with the horrible treatment they received after WWII?) and brainwashed young men who figure they're risking their lives for the honourable purpose of furthering the Fatherland. And you're telling me this is less honourable than the Americans/Brits/Russians who were going out to fight to save their land (they werent fighting to save Jews)? How so? Because their intentions were less moral? But htat only holds if morals are objective, which they aren't. And the German boys, for all they knew their entire life, were much more honourable than the Americans/Brits/Rooskies.
And, thirdly, the Nazi solidiers had no say in the gasing and such that went on. That was ordered by men much higher up.
Righty-o. That's why they allowed the concentration camps.
*Edit*
Oh fuck this. Star, his knowledge of WW2 is either fucked or he's just trying to make you feel ignorent because you are American. It's wrong.
Now, having reassured myself that Canada's educational system is in as bad shape as ours, I turn to the most excellent Star's most insightful topic:
I've got the day off. I plan to do this
Will I do anything special? No. But I am glad to have a day to think about it, and more importantly, this seems the respectful and honourable thing to do.
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Star's right, in my opinion, and she has a good point. You Canadians stay out of this.
I agree that it would be nice to remember those who died, those who tried to save them, and the tragedy that befell those who went to work and didn't come home. Many families were torn asunder in the event. A lot of peoples lives were affected permanetly.
I do not think all the costs have yet been tallied. Many of the rescue workers inhaled all sorts of stuff that was in the area, abestosos for one. There have been many reports of breathing difficulties and test show that they have stuff in their lungs. This will be with us as long as this generation is alive. I would think it would be a good way to remember those, too.
I do not think all the costs have yet been tallied. Many of the rescue workers inhaled all sorts of stuff that was in the area, abestosos for one. There have been many reports of breathing difficulties and test show that they have stuff in their lungs. This will be with us as long as this generation is alive. I would think it would be a good way to remember those, too.
So why not remember the Holocaust? A lot more people died then, and it was a lot worse than 9 11. An entire race of people faced extermination. But why don't we honor the dead of the Holocaust?
It is simply not sensible to honor every single person who dies unjustly. Then what happens to all the people who were kidnapped, raped/killed (the two often come hand in hand) etc? Does that mean we shoudl make national holodays for them, too? Heck no.
I am not saying this as a third person who didn't lose anything, I lost several friends who lived in New York. I still don't think we should honor them just because they died.
It is simply not sensible to honor every single person who dies unjustly. Then what happens to all the people who were kidnapped, raped/killed (the two often come hand in hand) etc? Does that mean we shoudl make national holodays for them, too? Heck no.
I am not saying this as a third person who didn't lose anything, I lost several friends who lived in New York. I still don't think we should honor them just because they died.
woohoo
the volume of reservations for flogging has exceeded all expectations .we are now staying open an additional day
a line of teeshirts commemorating our brave firefighters, police
and whatnot has been introduced ($9.99!!!!)
thank you for your support
ps: 5% of revenues will be donated to a worthy cause!!
the volume of reservations for flogging has exceeded all expectations .we are now staying open an additional day
a line of teeshirts commemorating our brave firefighters, police
and whatnot has been introduced ($9.99!!!!)
thank you for your support
ps: 5% of revenues will be donated to a worthy cause!!
"Righty-o. That's why they allowed the concentration camps."
Haha! Okay, if you wish I'll go get the Thesis my OAC history teacher handed me on this subject and quote him. He spent 4 years touring Germany, Austria and reading every old interview he could to find the answer to this and personally, with lack of a better source to prove him wrong, I've accepted most of his theories as true.
It's generally not debated the older Germans we're not in favour of Hitler's racial crimes. Let me explain it to you this way - in Canada and (to a lesser extent, I believe) the U.S. in the 30s had major fascist parties start up. The people of neither nation (as a majority) were in favour of the racial issues brought to the table by the socially and economically fascist parties. Never the less, the fascist parties (I won't speak on behalf of America here as I honestly don't know, but it was true in Canada) of the 1930's we're popular and a constant threat. People were willing to follow the racial stuff if it got them out of the depression.
Now, consider that Germans had been suffering much longer, much harder and suffered national embarassment as well (due to post-WWI acts). Not to mention they, unlike Canada or America, actually had better reason to be rascist (not to say that Nazism is ever justifiable; rather, that 1933 Germany was presented with far more of a serious racial issue for the time period).
Now, please consider what you're saying before you're saying it. Allow Hitler to build concentration camps? Come Xev, that's like saying "Yeah, I can't believe Trinidad allowed America to go into WWI." German citizens had NO idea what was going to occur because of Hitler. He didn't stand up every day in 1932 and say "I will KILL all the Jews!". He stood up and said "The Jew is a problem, and one which we must fix if the great German cause is to progress!" Germans figured Hitler would do what he did at first - descriminate against Jews and encourage German citizens to stop entirely buying at Jewish shops. By the time concentration camp opened there was no way (or real reason) for Germans to get Hitler out of power. Here's a man with all of the youth, the entire army and incredible populartiy due to massive economic improvement - and you want the old guys to overthrow him??? How the hell is that possible? Can we do that in a Democracy? Hell no. How about in a Dictatorship?? Somehow doubt it, eh?
Please, Xev, you already know everything I've written down here. Don't jump to conclusions. I am not writing this to knock on star's patriotism. I am writing this because she made a ridiculous comment. Not to mention that she only had one reply when I asked about WWII and WWI. I can only assume she has no clue that in WWI the Germans were in no way more morally wrong than us.
Haha! Okay, if you wish I'll go get the Thesis my OAC history teacher handed me on this subject and quote him. He spent 4 years touring Germany, Austria and reading every old interview he could to find the answer to this and personally, with lack of a better source to prove him wrong, I've accepted most of his theories as true.
It's generally not debated the older Germans we're not in favour of Hitler's racial crimes. Let me explain it to you this way - in Canada and (to a lesser extent, I believe) the U.S. in the 30s had major fascist parties start up. The people of neither nation (as a majority) were in favour of the racial issues brought to the table by the socially and economically fascist parties. Never the less, the fascist parties (I won't speak on behalf of America here as I honestly don't know, but it was true in Canada) of the 1930's we're popular and a constant threat. People were willing to follow the racial stuff if it got them out of the depression.
Now, consider that Germans had been suffering much longer, much harder and suffered national embarassment as well (due to post-WWI acts). Not to mention they, unlike Canada or America, actually had better reason to be rascist (not to say that Nazism is ever justifiable; rather, that 1933 Germany was presented with far more of a serious racial issue for the time period).
Now, please consider what you're saying before you're saying it. Allow Hitler to build concentration camps? Come Xev, that's like saying "Yeah, I can't believe Trinidad allowed America to go into WWI." German citizens had NO idea what was going to occur because of Hitler. He didn't stand up every day in 1932 and say "I will KILL all the Jews!". He stood up and said "The Jew is a problem, and one which we must fix if the great German cause is to progress!" Germans figured Hitler would do what he did at first - descriminate against Jews and encourage German citizens to stop entirely buying at Jewish shops. By the time concentration camp opened there was no way (or real reason) for Germans to get Hitler out of power. Here's a man with all of the youth, the entire army and incredible populartiy due to massive economic improvement - and you want the old guys to overthrow him??? How the hell is that possible? Can we do that in a Democracy? Hell no. How about in a Dictatorship?? Somehow doubt it, eh?
Please, Xev, you already know everything I've written down here. Don't jump to conclusions. I am not writing this to knock on star's patriotism. I am writing this because she made a ridiculous comment. Not to mention that she only had one reply when I asked about WWII and WWI. I can only assume she has no clue that in WWI the Germans were in no way more morally wrong than us.
My opinion:
I agree with the whole argument we don't get to mourn the holocaust etc, so why Sept 11th. Secondly, if the day is given off to allow you to mourn who you knew and lost - well, that doesn't happen when you lose other members of your femily/friends. and if you're off to mourn everyone lost, not to seem insensitive to anyone who's lost, terrorist attack or not, you can mourn just as easily at work, or after work, etc. It's not gonna help them when you mourn, and if you need to do it for yourself then take a sick day or something, there's no reason why you should have to do it on Sept 11th. OK, I didn't phrase that very well, feel free to jump all over it, tear it apart and make me seem coldhearted and inhuman.
About the World War - what Tyler said, also that there was the whole social control thing, it's easy to commit a deed if you know you're not gonna be held responsible (your superiors will be) and if you don't comply, then you'll get shot. Also, it's just as easy to believe all the propoganda that was around then; if you believe they are inhuman, or less than human, it's easy to kill them.
Also, what's been said previously about only honouring the firefighters etc who were about on Sept 11th, why not others? I'm sure others have gone into a burning building with worse odds. Similarly, maybe some workers in the TT were rascists or something; there are a lot more worthwhile people who should be honoured, and aren't (in terms of a holiday or whatever). Just cos it's a mass death thing that makes it special? Cos like it has already been said; there have been other mass deaths which aren't honoured.
I agree with the whole argument we don't get to mourn the holocaust etc, so why Sept 11th. Secondly, if the day is given off to allow you to mourn who you knew and lost - well, that doesn't happen when you lose other members of your femily/friends. and if you're off to mourn everyone lost, not to seem insensitive to anyone who's lost, terrorist attack or not, you can mourn just as easily at work, or after work, etc. It's not gonna help them when you mourn, and if you need to do it for yourself then take a sick day or something, there's no reason why you should have to do it on Sept 11th. OK, I didn't phrase that very well, feel free to jump all over it, tear it apart and make me seem coldhearted and inhuman.
About the World War - what Tyler said, also that there was the whole social control thing, it's easy to commit a deed if you know you're not gonna be held responsible (your superiors will be) and if you don't comply, then you'll get shot. Also, it's just as easy to believe all the propoganda that was around then; if you believe they are inhuman, or less than human, it's easy to kill them.
Also, what's been said previously about only honouring the firefighters etc who were about on Sept 11th, why not others? I'm sure others have gone into a burning building with worse odds. Similarly, maybe some workers in the TT were rascists or something; there are a lot more worthwhile people who should be honoured, and aren't (in terms of a holiday or whatever). Just cos it's a mass death thing that makes it special? Cos like it has already been said; there have been other mass deaths which aren't honoured.
Woah woah waoh woah, back it up just a tad. You have a day off because of Christopher Columbus? Awww man
I would have no problems with Germany having a national holiday to remember the soldiers that fought in WW2. Most were forced to fight against their will and to do evil acts. As Firefly said, with all the propaganda flying around then, many would have seen their acts as good deeds and for a greater good, but then again, many knew better though. There were defectors and double agents also. Did you know that they thought that the Allies were evil, just because of all the propaganda thrown at them. If they had known the truth, there would have been no war.
But a holiday for 9/11 is an ok idea, but it would have to be a multinational holiday I think. There were many British, French, Canadians, etc there too. Not just Americans, but it did effect the US most though. So I'm ok with it, but I'm not going to activly support it though
I would have no problems with Germany having a national holiday to remember the soldiers that fought in WW2. Most were forced to fight against their will and to do evil acts. As Firefly said, with all the propaganda flying around then, many would have seen their acts as good deeds and for a greater good, but then again, many knew better though. There were defectors and double agents also. Did you know that they thought that the Allies were evil, just because of all the propaganda thrown at them. If they had known the truth, there would have been no war.
But a holiday for 9/11 is an ok idea, but it would have to be a multinational holiday I think. There were many British, French, Canadians, etc there too. Not just Americans, but it did effect the US most though. So I'm ok with it, but I'm not going to activly support it though