A couple questions/issues I have on the topic of prayer

Innominate said:
My point is this, right now, I believe prayer only benifits the individual praying
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Is that so bad?

A person prays, and in some way, it helps them.
But because this person cannot prove the efficacy of their praying to others, then this praying does not really count, and the person might just as well stop praying -?

Interesting logic.


I know someone who has a similar stance on "alternative medicine". He is so focused on objective provability, that he completely neglects the fact that people indeed often feel better after applying "alternative medicine".

As if using a treatment others can prove / can be proved to others would be more important than one feeling better.


When the one thing people are after is a particular state of mind, not wealth or health per se.
 
i don't think prayer only benefits the individual praying. that's why i think it would be impossible to measure. all of our thoughts and desires affect everyone, over time. we don't live in an isolated existence. we live in a communal existence. even if you try to isolate yourself, you can not escape the effect you have on everything around you, which affects everything else, and so on.

i'm almost positive i've heard of studies like what's suggested in this thread being conducted in hospitals before, and if i'm not mistaken there were positive effects, but effects that could be attributed to a placebo effect. nothing miraculous.
 
If people knew they were being prayed over, their healing was inhibited, as it implied they were a desperate case.
 
a person would have to experiance prayer and its effects to be able to assign it any value.
 
spidergoat said:
So you have to actually be the one praying to notice anything?
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i was talking about the value we place on the experiance is dependant on POV.

even in partical physics we only know what we can measure..but the partical knows more than we do, it has the advantage of a distinct point of view.
 
I don't dispute that people think it's a valuable thing, but I already pointed out the naturalistic mechanism that explains it. It is apparently impossible to use prayer to justify objectively that God exists.
 
spidergoat said:
No one's talking about personal gain. You are basically admitting that the benefits are psychological and indistinguishable from secular practices like meditation, which are demonstrably beneficial.
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Funny that you mention this, EEG waves in the brain are exactly the same when someone is praying, or meditating. There is no evidence that the two are any different besides the explanation of the individual participating. When it comes to opinions vs EEG waves...I'm willing to bet on EEGs.

Lori_7 said:
yes/no what? that there is a god? yes.

i just don't think that what's being suggested is what god or prayer is for. i don't think god is something you poke or prod to see what he will do, or prayer and it's results are something you measure to try to prove to someone that there is a god.

i think the whole experience is supposed to be more personal than that.
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The point is though, if it worked, it would be obvious, after millions/billions(you choose) of years..it should be clear as to whether or not prayers do something, right? The context doesn't matter...god has had plenty of time to make it obvious that he's out there in the form of answered prayers.

I just don't buy the excuse that he's so wise and mysterious that we'll never be "sure" The world makes more sense to simply believe he isn't there. I agree that prayer is a personal experience, that's because I feel no two believers worship the same god. Each one prays to their own personal interpretation of a god. There's historical evidence of this in the fact that gods almost always resemble someone/something from the society they were worshiped in. Just look at all the pictures of a pale skinned blue eyed jesus, or pictures of an African American jesus in a black community, anyway, I'm just rambling.
 
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Innominate said:
Funny that you mention this, EEG waves in the brain are exactly the same when someone is praying, or meditating. There is no evidence that the two are any different besides the explanation of the individual participating. When it comes to opinions vs EEG waves...I'm willing to bet on EEGs.



The point is though, if it worked, it would be obvious, after millions/billions(you choose) of years..it should be clear as to whether or not prayers do something, right? The context doesn't matter...god has had plenty of time to make it obvious that he's out there in the form of answered prayers.

I just don't buy the excuse that he's so wise and mysterious that we'll never be "sure" The world makes more sense to simply believe he isn't there. I agree that prayer is a personal experience, that's because I feel no two believers worship the same god. Each one prays to their own personal interpretation of a god. There's historical evidence of this in the fact that gods almost always resemble someone/something from the society they were worshiped in. Just look at all the pictures of a pale skinned blue eyed jesus, or pictures of an African American jesus in a black community, anyway, I'm just rambling.
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yeah, you're rambling...lol. now i'm not sure if you think there's a god, or not, or perhaps 1000's of them.

what you don't understand is that it IS obvious, and we ARE sure. but it's obvious to an individual, because the knowledge is personal.

i mean if you want to investigate, there are an abundance of testimonies out there about answered prayer, and miraculous healings. apparently that doesn't make it obvious to you and many others. you just can't be sure until it happens to you.
 
Lori_7 said:
yeah, you're rambling...lol. now i'm not sure if you think there's a god, or not, or perhaps 1000's of them.

what you don't understand is that it IS obvious, and we ARE sure. but it's obvious to an individual, because the knowledge is personal.

i mean if you want to investigate, there are an abundance of testimonies out there about answered prayer, and miraculous healings. apparently that doesn't make it obvious to you and many others. you just can't be sure until it happens to you.
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The problem is, I've had those personal experiences, I went to christian school, I went to church on and off for most of my life before that. My faith was fairly solid, and it definetly wasn't blind. Then I started showing interest in psychology, and neuroscience, and I learned that everything I felt that I truly believed was god actually made more sense if I took god out. It truly was all in my brain.

One strong piece of evidence to support this is the generally accepted fact that the right side of the brain is non-verbal, it's been suggested that while communicating with a god, in reality we're communicating with the non-verbal parts of our brain. Since they communicate more with "feelings" than actual words, we interprete these feelings as being a seperate being, not our own brain. Now, as crazy as that sounds, tests involving EEG waves have been done that prove the right side of the brain becomes more active during prayer and meditation.

There's a lot more evidence out there, but my point is this, I've had those personal experiences, I had them for most of my life, then I learned where they came from, and to my surprise, it had nothing to do with god.
 
i just watched a movie called "what the bleep do we know?", and it was really good, and really relevant to this topic. it was about quantum physics.

seriously, if anyone is even remotely interested in a reconciliation of science and religion, you need to watch this movie. it explained scientifically how our thoughts and desires manifest, via quantum physics, via biology (this is the power of prayer). it explained communion. it explained how jesus walked on water. it explained aging (immortality anyone?) it explained, from the perspective of scientists, how very little we realize how powerful we are and why. i argue every day out here with people who claim to be science-minded, and yet will defend hate, lies, lust, greed, and deny that any evil or incorrect thought will surely manifest into the reality we live in. well i propose, they don't understand quantum physics and biology, and need to study up, or shut up. and it explained that there is an observer, who is not a part of the physical body, but is observing the world through a physical body. that observer is who we really are. our spirit.

a spirit who knows things, and can discern, and is powerful, and who will be manifest in this world, whether the naysayers like it, or recognize it, or not. a spirit, who when enlightened, will understand that it is not some dumb, helpless, machine who can only react and adapt to the givens in their environment, but is actually the only responsible, and all-powerful creator of their environment. this is god. this is communion. this is law, and this is how we operate under it. what? did the many of you think things got this fucked up by, and will be fixed with, magic?

it's not magic! god is not magic. prayer is not magic. consequences are not rewards and punishments bestowed upon us by some big magic guy in the sky. morality is not law. morality is an indication of how fucked up we are! and so is religion.

so religious people get dinged for knowing all along. for understanding something that is obvious, before science catches up, "discovers" it, and slaps a label on it. then either ignores it completely and resumes life in slavery, or finds a way to exploit it, which illogically defeats the whole purpose. great. the religious and scientists are equally guilty of doing this, while waiting for someone or something to save us.

well jesus taught us a lot of lessons that quantum physics and biology supports. does that change you?

and no, i don't have any more faith than that in humanity. based on history...based on everything i see around me. i think there are some people, who will embrace what we know is true, and will move on and progress, and there are some people who will not, and will stay right here in hell.
 
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here you go...watch it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSk51Lp-vHU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut4JNzWgjaA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqgSf7GDjI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQe0oiaBssg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlomn1Hc_VM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVWaRNk-dR0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef34C4WKmb4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uKCj1zTbQg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlCozQvvcl0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Mu4ziPf3A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VEJt3wrOlk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTZjIVR6TLI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD-3wK3hZYw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWXJUNkkKj0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLYv-fiaxw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyTK46635gM&feature=related

you're welcome.
 
Lori_7 said:
i just watched a movie called "what the bleep do we know?", and it was really good, and really relevant to this topic. it was about quantum physics.
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One of the stupidest movies I ever saw. Totally misrepresents the state of science and our knowledge of quantum mechanics.
 
The film really isn't about quantum physics, it's a lot of unsupported new age spiritual nonsense.
 
these lyrics are true. they are happening. they are our prayers...

bleed it out

I've opened up these scars
I'll make you face this

I've pulled myself so far
I'll make you, face, this, now!!!!

I bleed it out digging deeper
Just to throw it away

I bleed it out digging deeper
Just to throw it away

I bleed it out digging deeper
Just to throw it away

Just to throw it away
Just to throw it away

i bleed it out.


i feel compelled, because of what i've experienced, and what i know, to tell people that things are about to change in a dramatic, traumatic way. because of what we all know, the luxury of sitting on the fence and admiring your lies, while periodically gazing off into never-neverland is going to end, and you have to decide whether you're in or you're out.
 
Lori_7 said:
it's not nonsense to me. those scientists explained to me what i already know, and i'm not the only one. and i'm not a scientist. many of us aren't. explain that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2ryt2t7xWs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sgycukafqQ&ob=av2n

the truth is, that many of us know, and we are going to change the world. we are committed.
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Because the directors of the movie all follow some new age guru who channels the character Ramtha, a Lemurian warrior who fought against the people of Atlantis thirty-five thousand years ago. Ramtha is said to have conquered two-thirds of the known world before ascending to heaven at a spot near the Indus River. Ramtha appeared to Judith Darlene Hampton and her husband in the kitchen of their trailer home in Tacoma, Washington on February 7, 1977. She now makes about 10 million dollars a year. So, they have a stake in portraying physics as supporting a concept called monistic idealism, the idea that the universe is made out of one kind of stuff, and that stuff is consciousness or spirit. Most religions including Christianity preach Cartesian dualism, which means the universe is composed out of matter and some other kind of thing called spirit or soul. Science so far supports physical monism, which is that there is one kind of stuff, matter, and that mind is a byproduct of purely physical processes.

I think you like the idea that spirit replaces the perceived impersonal nature of matter. It's a magical worldview sure to delight the mystically oriented.

In contrast to their reasoning, the collapse of the abstract wave function is just a mathematical artifice, it doesn't mean that consciousness is somehow the stuff of the world. Let's drop them off a tall tower and see if their thoughts can make their particles pass freely through the hard ground. No, classical physics seems to rule all events beyond a certain very tiny distance and time interval.
 
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