A God We Know Nothing About

[PsychoticEpisode]

On the contrary, radical reductionism has fewer players in the field ( it only has one - matter) ... and as your post touches on, it doesn't even have the means to begin "breaking down one's thoughts"

Heehee.

Au contraire, it will be matter that will be used to break down your thoughts. Or least give it a go.

What do we have here besides a belief in a god no one knows anything about? Do we add a belief that such a God is not composed of matter?

A belief cannot be known, plain and simple. So that would make any claim of a radical reductionist in the crowd equivalent to a shot in the dark based on unknown facts.

I have asked you for what you know about God. I am tending to think that you realize there is nothing you can provide along those lines. I admire the effort in attempting to convince the reductionists, as you call us, that they have to know there is something beyond our present scope of understanding & reality that cannot be reduced to mere matter, is interwoven and connected to the consciousness network and thoughts not driven by mere mechanical interactions of chemicals & electrical fields etc., somehow represents the link in the communication system necessary to find God.

Are you saying you know nothing about God but if you or I want to know then we must use our collective consciousnesses to make the leap and in the meantime, keep the faith?

 

[lightgigantic]

Heehee.

Au contraire, it will be matter that will be used to break down your thoughts. Or least give it a go.

Interesting

Matter affecting something for which there is no evidence of being materially composed.

What do we have here besides a belief in a god no one knows anything about? Do we add a belief that such a God is not composed of matter?

A belief cannot be known, plain and simple. So that would make any claim of a radical reductionist in the crowd equivalent to a shot in the dark based on unknown facts.

Perhaps what you are overseeing is that all claims of knowledge have some issues of "belief" at their core

I have asked you for what you know about God.

And I have responded by suggesting the qualitative model is a good point to begin such a discussion (as opposed to the quantitative model)

I am tending to think that you realize there is nothing you can provide along those lines.

Quantitatively, sure.
Not much to see.

Much like quantitatively, there is not much to see in a first year physics degree ......

I admire the effort in attempting to convince the reductionists, as you call us, that they have to know there is something beyond our present scope of understanding & reality that cannot be reduced to mere matter, is interwoven and connected to the consciousness network and thoughts not driven by mere mechanical interactions of chemicals & electrical fields etc., somehow represents the link in the communication system necessary to find God.

"present scope and understanding" doesn't necessarily have to involve such complex issues.

If you "know" that you have spent time in your mother's womb yet have neglected to ever carry out a dna test, you're already there.

Are you saying you know nothing about God but if you or I want to know then we must use our collective consciousnesses to make the leap and in the meantime, keep the faith?

Initially perhaps.

Much like if one hangs out long enough with the theory of physics one gets the opportunity to enter into practice .... and it is by successful practice that all things knowable reveal themselves.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Much like if one hangs out long enough with the theory of physics one gets the opportunity to enter into practice .... and it is by successful practice that all things knowable reveal themselves.

I think I'll practice getting younger.

By successfully practicing what, will enable one to know God?

 

[lightgigantic]

I think I'll practice getting younger.

there might be a lot of theory on the subject but not much in the field of practical application I'm afraid

By successfully practicing what, will enable one to know God?

Well suppose one was trying to personally meet the president or some big important person.

What are just a few ideas off the top of your head that could help you get to know them?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Well suppose one was trying to personally meet the president or some big important person.

What are just a few ideas off the top of your head that could help you get to know them?

How do you know I'm not the president or some big important person?

This is ridiculous. Paraphrased, you said 'practice and you'll eventually know God'. I said 'practice' what? If I knew I wouldn't ask. Just how does someone meet God when they don't know anything about Him? Jump off a cliff?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Have LG pack your parachute.

 

[lightgigantic]

How do you know I'm not the president or some big important person?

I never said I knew that you weren't (mind you, the idea of the president gracing the forums of sci seems a bit absurd)

This is ridiculous. Paraphrased, you said 'practice and you'll eventually know God'. I said 'practice' what? If I knew I wouldn't ask. Just how does someone meet God when they don't know anything about Him? Jump off a cliff?

Actually I answered by asking you for some general ideas of how one could get to know (personally) an important person (like a president, a big business magnate, etc).

I assume you can come up with some thing a bit more effective than scoping out contributors on net forums.

 

[Jan Ardena]

swarm,

If god exists then there is no need to believe.

Why?

If god isn't then belief is just insane self delusion.

"God isn't" is either wishful thinking (weird), complete ignorance, or plain foolishness.

Its so amusing that you have definitions concerning something you have no actual knowledge of.

What do you mean by "actual knowledge"?

Actually it is by and far the weakest because it assumes you know what you do not and it prevents further inquiry.

a) we are talking about the "world of assumptions" here.

b) have you ever seen those puzzle books with crosswords, spot the difference, word and number games etc...
If you look at the back, they usually have the answers to all the games.
Despite being able to know the answers, most people still try and work it
out for themselves, and they may use the provided answers to see how they have faired.
"God did it" is the answer at the back of the book.

In other words belief in god is the choice of ignorance instead of inquiry.

Belief in God is necessary for those who want to understand, and know, more about God. Lack of belief in God (which varies), is the position of those who don't, for whatever reason.
What you are doing here is forcing your lack of belief in God, which has now become more tangible, by trying to show that God does not exist (because you can't see him). That is the entire logical basis to your world view.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

swarm,

The same way we know anything: observation, interaction and analysis, verification and concensus with others.

If God exists, then God is the source of observation, perception, the ability to verify, and come to concensus with others. In effect we would be using God, to conclude God. It would be like looking for your eyes without understanding that you are using them to look for them.

You wondering around 'believing" isn't knowing god any more than the atheist knows god. You just have more self delusion concerning the matter.

Belief can allow open-mindedness.
For example we (some of us) can comprehend that there is more to life than what we see with our eyes.

jan.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Belief can allow open-mindedness.
For example we (some of us) can comprehend that there is more to life than what we see with our eyes.

Interesting...I assume your referring to a theist's understanding of God. Oddly enough there's another true blue theist on this forum who says God is beyond our comprehension. So I guess Jan, congratulations are in order.

You don't have to be a theist to know there's more to life than what's presented to the naked eye.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Interesting...I assume your referring to a theist's understanding of God.

Partly.....yes

Oddly enough there's another true blue theist on this forum who says God is beyond our comprehension. So I guess Jan, congratulations are in order.

I don't think God is beyond our comprehension.
I think our comprehension is lacking.

You don't have to be a theist to know there's more to life than what's presented to the naked eye.

I didn't say that.
This is the kind of lacking of comprehension I refer to.

jan.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Interesting...I assume your referring to a theist's understanding of God. Oddly enough there's another true blue theist on this forum who says God is beyond our comprehension.

For God substitute 'Reality'. The nature of reality is beyond our comprehension, and probably always will elude us. However, that does not mean we have no experience or comprehension of reality at all.

You don't have to be a theist to know there's more to life than what's presented to the naked eye.

True, but I think many scientists (and atheists) have a strong yearning to find a simple theory that explains everything. It is only by having this goal that great theories are born e.g. Newtons laws of motion or Darwin's evolution have huge explanatory power, yet can be summed up in a few sentences, or formulae.

However, I think most theists (me included) are uncomfortable with the single neat materialist model of reality that current science prefers, and feel it does not adequately account for the complexity of our experience or of reality.

Hence, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Without the challenges of atheism, religion can get fanciful and superstitious, but without theism, atheism can oversimplify our experience to the minimal state of our current paradigm - materialist, meaningless and without hope.

 

[EndLightEnd]

Without the challenges of atheism, religion can get fanciful and superstitious, but without theism, atheism can oversimplify our experience to the minimal state of our current paradigm - materialist, meaningless and without hope.

Cant have one without the other... Each lends perspective to the other.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

without theism, atheism can oversimplify our experience to the minimal state of our current paradigm - materialist, meaningless and without hope.

Personally I can do that with or without theism. Theism has nothing to do with it. Materialistic, meaningless and without hope are only the conclusions of theists, who are theists because they can't accept this reality no matter what.

 

[lightgigantic]

Personally I can do that with or without theism. Theism has nothing to do with it. Materialistic, meaningless and without hope are only the conclusions of theists, who are theists because they can't accept this reality no matter what.

And that reality is what?

 

[swarm]

Why?

Do you have to believe in your foot or has actual knowledge of your foot rendered belief moot?

"God isn't" is either wishful thinking (weird), complete ignorance, or plain foolishness.

So you claim and yet you cannot produce even enough god to convince me to take you seriously.

What do you mean by "actual knowledge"?

Direct apprehension of the object in question in a manner which is replicable and verifiable.

b) have you ever seen those puzzle books with crosswords, spot the difference, word and number games etc...
If you look at the back, they usually have the answers to all the games.
Despite being able to know the answers, most people still try and work it
out for themselves, and they may use the provided answers to see how they have faired.
"God did it" is the answer at the back of the book.

If you had puzzle books and you "knew" the answer to every question was "god did it," how many would you do? The puzzles are interesting because the answer is always different.

People have access to the answers, but they don't know the answers when working the problem. Most people who read the answers first lose interest in the problem.

And to top it off, "god did it" isn't actually an answer to any of the questions. Its just a way to avoid the question.

Belief in God is necessary for those who want to understand, and know, more about God.

Belief in god is just a way of never actually knowing anything about god while feeling like you do.

You seem to completely lack an understanding of my world view.

 

[swarm]

If God exists, then

First show god exists, then we can work on actual conclutions instead of your rampant and unfounded speculation.

For example we (some of us) can comprehend that there is more to life than what we see with our eyes.

Your comprehension has nothing to do with god.

 

[Jan Ardena]

swarm,

Do you have to believe in your foot or has actual knowledge of your foot rendered belief moot?

Lol.
Existence is not the reason people believe in things.
A great example of gross-materialist thinking.

So you claim and yet you cannot produce even enough god to convince me to take you seriously.

And why do I need you to take me seriously?
Read a Bhagavad Gita, and try to understand the actual claim of the principle character. Either it will make enough sense to form a belief, or not.
If you lack belief because there is no physical evidence of the claimant, then you cannot be taken seriously.

Direct apprehension of the object in question in a manner which is replicable and verifiable.

The claim of God is that he is the Supreme Cause of all causes.
If his claim is correct, take your pick of evidence.
You have the power to believe or not.

If you had puzzle books and you "knew" the answer to every question was "god did it," how many would you do? The puzzles are interesting because the answer is always different.

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.

Oops...

...this is a quote by Albert Einstein. Best put in the quotation marks, would'nt want to get done for plagiarism.

“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.”

A. Einstein.

People have access to the answers, but they don't know the answers when working the problem. Most people who read the answers first lose interest in the problem.

There may be hope for you yet.

And to top it off, "god did it" isn't actually an answer to any of the questions. Its just a way to avoid the question.

From your perspective, I agree.
But there are different perspectives out there, you just need to open your mind to accept this.

Belief in god is just a way of never actually knowing anything about god while feeling like you do.

Therefore God does not exist.
Is that what you are implying?

You seem to completely lack an understanding of my world view.

I don't think that is possible.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

swarm,

Your comprehension has nothing to do with god.

It's either God, or goo.

jan.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Personally I can do that with or without theism. Theism has nothing to do with it. Materialistic, meaningless and without hope are only the conclusions of theists, who are theists because they can't accept this reality no matter what.

What... this reality which is material, meaningless and without hope?

I just don't see that belief leading anywhere good.