See, you put this so much better than I had.
Abortion
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See, you put this so much better than I had.
free will doesn't make such things inevitable.
The only reason you deem it inevitable is because you are only taking the material sphere as an example ... kind of like taking the residents of a jail as an example and asking "What sort of society is this that is made up of criminals?" ... to which the answer is "Actually this is only a segment of society who have misused their free will"
Actually what I would do is create a virtual world where persons who had the inclination to misuse their free will in destructive ways could play out their dramas. I would also engineer the virtual world to be inherently troublesome in many ways, particularly to the degree that one's habits are destructive, so that such people could come to their senses (by their own free will). Upon coming back to their senses, they would be re-socialized into the "real" world.
(BTW this also happens to be what god has actually done)
there's a saying something like "success has no limits and failure knows no bottom".
IOW just as free will can cause one's self a lot of grief, it can also be the source of incredible innovation.
(Just imagine how boring it would be to watch the matrix if there was no one to offer the red or the blue pill)
Its not so much that I refused to answer them, but rather that your q's don't make much sense (like taking the goings on in the material world as sufficient to judge a perfectly socialized community - aka doing the same with a jail population ... or suggesting it would have been better to be made without the possibility to make mistakes - aka dead stones ... etc etc)
So in the matrix movie, after the guy took the pill, did he get transported to a generated world or from a generated one?
Note:::
Sinse im havin trouble gettin you to answr questons... im jus gonna ask 1 at a time an see if that helps.!!!
oK... so you say that God givin us free will didnt make it inevitable that millions of children woud be raped an murdered... but did you'r all-knowin God know befor he put his creaton plan into action that it woud lead to millions of children bein raped an murdered.???
Sinse im havin trouble gettin you to answr questons... im jus gonna ask 1 at a time an see if that helps.!!!
oK... so you say that God givin us free will didnt make it inevitable that millions of children woud be raped an murdered... but did you'r all-knowin God know befor he put his creaton plan into action that it woud lead to millions of children bein raped an murdered.???
So basically a z/e/f is special because it will eventually become a person, and has rights over her body for that reason.
The main words there are will eventually become. Fact is during early pregnancy it's NOT a person.
I don't even know what the fuck you're on about.
Yeah... an ant all that perty much irrelevent in this discusson... sinse mos everbody here wants the final dicision to be up the woman.???
I agree.
I am 1,000,000% against the extreme end who think abortion is wrong even if the mother might kill herself, even if she's 13, even if she conceived last week.
On the other hand...not even I'd argue in favour of, say, abortion at the 9th month..
Everybody doesn't.
I think that's a big part of what causes the division to extremes. One feels they must get extreme to counter what they percieve as an extreme.'
Another problem is the lack of attainable definition. When does a fetus become conscious? Well, we can't determine that. We can only set a safe guess.
What about a parent that REALLY wants that child. Can a person imagine that loss? Should another person have the right to choose against that?
It's as simple as it is complex. In the end, one can only go by cold science.
If the undeveloped fetus has no consciousness, it is not a technical person. The fact it is MORE than a hair follicle is something that deserves respect. But it cannot be made into something it is not, either. For either side.
If it has no consciousness, the rights must go to the one that does. The mother. Since it has no consciousness, one cannot claim the father has a devout love for that child, as that child is not a personality. He must love the IDEA, not the actual child. Therefor, choice MUST be on the mother.
That is a finality that disregards the fact that there must be discussion between mother and father in order to enable the best decision she will make.
I think almost everyone can agree that once that development exceeds consciousness, it is too late to destroy.
It is too late to any longer claim the father has no say.
Drawing lines at birth or at 24 weeks or at 22 weeks is simply human labeling. We cannot truly KNOW when.
The pro life stance is one that feels that Once Development BEGINS, the choice has been made. This is an extreme, realistically. And I think it begs an extreme in return. But begging is not the same as wish granting. Those that argue pro choice can recognize the actuality without giving in to extremes.
Exactly. And this is the point I fumbled earlier in this thread. Sometimes, pro choice comes across as if they feel this way. It may not be accurate but when things are presented as such, it only gives pro life the advantage.
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Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Yeah... an ant all that perty much irrelevent in this discusson... sinse mos everbody here wants the final [decision] to be up the woman.??? ”
Yeah thats why i didnt say everbody... so how bout you... do you want the final decision to be up to the woman.???
Yeah... an ant all that perty much irrelevent in this discusson... sinse mos everbody here wants the final [decision] to be up the woman.??? ”
Yeah thats why i didnt say everbody... so how bout you... do you want the final decision to be up to the woman.???
So at what pont do you not want the decision to be up to the woman.???
the fact is that it is life, which it remains from the point of conception to the point of death. To label its beginning somewhere along that continuum is political jargon (ie language used to assert a power advantage of one class and a power disadvantage of another). Political jargon forms the basis of racism, sexism and a host of other slights on the backside of human civilization that we are now gradually growing accustomed to being embarrassed by.
well not really .... much like a civil engineer knows beforehand that the construction of a jail will house so many rapists and murderers, mainly because they are facilitating a need rather than developing a need within society (I mean its not like the material world or a jail has a quota to meet so the officials in charge go about engineering criminal acts in others just to keep the rooms full)
NB - .... in the case of god there is the extra advantage of relegating misbehavior to a virtual world, so nobody really gets hurt.
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...did you'r all-knowin God know befor he put his creaton plan into action that it woud lead to millions of children bein raped an murdered.???
So you'r God is not all knowin.???
...did you'r all-knowin God know befor he put his creaton plan into action that it woud lead to millions of children bein raped an murdered.???
So you'r God is not all knowin.???
You might have read earlier how I suggested having recourse to abortion (or some other nefarious act) is the default position of a society that is slack in asserting a sense of control or responsibility for its actions (It would be tantamount to psychological torture to live in a society that portrays the sexual act as the means for anything and everything - from selling radiator spare parts to being the complete special person you always aspire to be - except a key initiator to the rites of parenthood - while simultaneously having heavy legislation or even regulation for things like abortion).
IOW it would be a failed social policy, much like prohibition of the early 1900's.
The real solution involves shifting out of default solutions for greater problems and re-structuring the values of society that contextualize not only abortion but a host of other issues that are sending our civilization on its current trajectory.
Basically their are one of two world views that one can encompass
- where one is the center of the universe (looking at everything in terms of "I" and "mine")
- where one is but a part of the universe
Lets call the first one animal consciousness and the second one human consciousness.
Animal consciousness looks through the world in the severely restricted aperture of one's needs, interests and concerns.
Human consciousness enables a departure from such a necessarily egoistic world view and can move into such realms as morality, philosophy and art (and even science).
The real solution to most of the problems of human society (including abortion) lies in civilization making that movement towards a greater sense of duty and acting to its higher potential ... not calling upon technology to artificially keep it bound to a lower animal state.
no.
He knows, much like the civil engineer of a jail, that construction of a penal system doesn't create criminals.
The logic behind your question is that construction of a jail creates windows of opportunity for rapists and murderers.
:shrug:
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So you'r God is not all knowin.??? ”
So hes surprized at how thangs are goin... but do you thank hes pleased wit how thangs are goin.???
So you'r God is not all knowin.??? ”
So hes surprized at how thangs are goin... but do you thank hes pleased wit how thangs are goin.???
LIFE is not the same thing as PERSONHOOD goddammit. If I have a fucking tapeworm in my lower intestines do I have to respect that it's a life? No.
why do you suppose he would be surprised?
why do you think he wouldn't be pleased?
"personhood" is your political term
IOW it is vague and arbitrary ... much like the vague and arbitrary political arguments that backed black people not making the grade to "personhood"
:shrug:
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So [Gods] surprized at how thangs are goin... but do you thank hes pleased wit how thangs are goin.???
Cause he ant all-knowin.!!!
I dont know if he is or ant... i guess it woud depend on his purpos for creatin us wit free will an whether his purpos has been forfilled... so what was his purpos for creatin us.???
So [Gods] surprized at how thangs are goin... but do you thank hes pleased wit how thangs are goin.???
Cause he ant all-knowin.!!!
I dont know if he is or ant... i guess it woud depend on his purpos for creatin us wit free will an whether his purpos has been forfilled... so what was his purpos for creatin us.???
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