ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

[Write4U]

That is an impressive model, adds even a rotation, In essence it is an expanding sphere once you are into the convex part.
the diagram feature agree with this, as one of the possibilities, The expanding through time model deals only with the movement outward movement in time, timespace.
If, in Roger Penrose fashion there is a return into the beginning, the arrows would be reversed, without recreating the past.
Even the journey back into the past would be a forward movement, into empty territory through timespace.

That does indeed conjure visions of a complex manifold, but I don't see the necessity for any kind of a complex geometry (Occam) or a reversal (even going forward in time) of any kind.

I see it more as a constant forward motion around universal meridians and back to the creative singularity that existed and was responsible for the previous beginning, which always lies beyond our event horizon in the black hole at the center of the toroid.

Meridian

Equator

(Note; IMO, the donut hole should close into a singularity)

If the Universe is indeed a dynamical toroid, its surface geometry should start retracting once it passed the donut's lateral equator and we should be able to observe old galaxies coming back into view as the universal 2D spacetime fabric shrinks toward the universal black hole, where it compresses back into a singularity, breaking down all matter back into it's three elementary particles, until a threshold mega quantum event recreates the BB and super luminal inflation momentarily drives the dynamic motion around the toroidal geometry in an endless recycling of the universe.

A chronological wavelike 2D surface evolution of a renewing toroidal geometry.

 

[nebel]

A chronological wavelike 2D surface evolution of a renewing toroidal geometry.

comparing the 2 models, the cross section of an expanding sphere moving into timespace below again

and your 3 elegant renditions, it appears that the donut universe resembles a smoke ring blown by a skilled smoker, or a thermal or a mushroom cloud. In such a dynamic structure, all particles are in constant motion, Closing the center hole would, given bernoulli, greatest speeds.
Could it be said that all the universe in different places at the same time is either expanding and in others, of equal mass, contracting?
Is not the current consensus that an expanding universe, spacetime expands in unison, and would shrink or collapse in sync, even if at different rates.?
I am not referring to local events like matter disappearing behind the event horizon of a black hole, but a reversal of movement of half of the universe on an ongoing basis.
be that as it may, in the esm the sphere #8 or any of similar radius could be the time marker of the past or future positions of the universe #3.
Surely the present toroid model universe had a big bang singularity beginning too? baby toroid of the past? would require. then the diagram above could be considered a donut too.
Ilike the toroid idea too, because as a soaring sailplane pilot, it was in centers of the toroid thermals that the amazing lift gave you a kick in the seat, derriere.

 

[Write4U]

Could it be said that all the universe in different places at the same time is either expanding and in others, of equal mass, contracting?
Is not the current consensus that an expanding universe, spacetime expands in unison, and would shrink or collapse in sync, even if at different rates.?

I'd like to know what happens to spacetime geometry as it approaches the center of a black hole.
Maybe the spacetime is elastic?

 

[nebel]

Maybe the spacetime is elastic?

In a black hole, it is over, so,
how about timespace, the future? Theme no. #1 ?

 

[Write4U]

In a black hole, it is over, so,
how about timespace, the future? Theme no. #1 ?

That's not the question.
The strange thing is that in a black hole space becomes infinitely stretched until it gets swallowed up in the singularity (which presents a paradox), but outside the event horizon the space is uniform except for gravitational distortions around massive objects. It would seem that spacetime geometry is extremely irregular .

So what is the geometry of "pure space"? Is it measurable at all?

 

[nebel]

So what is the geometry of "pure space"? Is it measurable at all?

well, pure space may be timespace #1 in the diagram. it is also energytime, because that space carries only energy not matter, that came later. 13.8 billion year away, ago. spacetime has no geometry, it is dimensionless. infinite. space becomes stretched, if it stops going through time, like is the situation in a black hole. hence the dimples in membrane #3 in previous posts, pages.

Space stretched back in timespace #1 &#2 toward the center, the beginning.
In your fat donut universe, the matter circulating into the center must come out in a white hole, now, that is interesting could be center #4 in the expanding sphere too.

 

[Write4U]

well, pure space may be timespace #1 in the diagram. it is also energytime, because that space carries only energy not matter, that came later. 13.8 billion year away, ago. spacetime has no geometry, it is dimensionless. infinite. space becomes stretched, if it stops going through time, like is the situation in a black hole. hence the dimples in membrane #3 in previous posts, pages.

Space stretched back in timespace #1 &#2 toward the center, the beginning.
In your fat donut universe, the matter circulating into the center must come out in a white hole, now, that is interesting could be center #4 in the expanding sphere too.

That is the idea of the donut, where space expands going outwards from and subsequently contracts going inwards to the creator B->.W-> hole, and recycling itself continuously

But note that inside the black hole, the blue line used to be a single (grey) ST unit between the green lines when flat, but has stretched to many times it's original size, until it "becomes" a point singularity. This is really weird!

Moreover, if spacetime is a measurement of spcegeometry, what happens to time element when the 2D surface unit of space begins to fall into the BH and continues to stretch until it reaches the singularity. Does time also expand or does it shrink as the unit of space accelerates toward the singularity? Can it still be called spacetime or timespace (if you will).
And what happens to the BH singularity during all this "input". I know that there is some loss due to radiation, but considering that light itself cannot escape beyond the event horizon, does all energy return to space before it reaches the singularity?

I usually have a pretty clear understanding of relative processes but I must admit, this completely stumps me.

 

[Write4U]

meridians

Should read "equators".

Also note that inside the donut, the BH singularity is located at the inside equator.

 

[nebel]

That is the idea of the donut, where space expands going outwards from and subsequently contracts going inwards to the creator B->.W-> hole, and recycling itself continuously

The funny funnel is actually a diagram of a dimple in the time position of the universe in membrane #3. the red line is a star, the blue line a neutron star, grey would ;lead to the bottom of a BH. but,
W4y, if you repurpose it again to picture the roiling center of the rotating donut universe, , why not? remember, as far as the data show, the rotating universe does not exist, the picture that is coming into our instruments does not show a 2 lobed, duality of matter, radiation. so, let me say that
the expanding sphere model shows the outside equator***, the current state/position in timespace #1, no matter what happened in the past (such as the donut theory) . but to repeat the question:
Where is the signal we should receive of a 2 lobe past looking at the panorama that comes into our detectors?

*** only your donut, and the sausage universes requires or define an "equator" or even equators of the universe., an asymmetry not proven. The expanding sphere #3 and blue ball of NS mag are symmetrical in all direction.

 

[Write4U]

Where is the signal we should receive of a 2 lobe past looking at the panorama that comes into our detectors?

There is no second lobe. The toroid is a single manifold and the part of the universe shielded from observation lies beyond our line of observation, the observation horizon. Does that not suggest a spacetime curvature, just like on earth we are unable to see what's beyond the horizon? Add to that the "waves" from the BB travel along the surface of spacetime and would be observable from all points of the toroid, whereas the physical objects would be beyond observational horizon, which the current knowledge AFAIK.

Another result is that, whereas the BH well towards the central singularity of the toroid becomes a natural "tunnel" and WH into the original beginning of spacetime, it will always be forward in time, and it would be impossible to tunnel across the well of the BH tunnel during the descent towards and the ascent from the singularity, which solves the time travel paradox altogether. It just can't be done.

I am just speculating. But when I see shapes like this which have all been proposed as suitable spacetime properties like.........

...................negative curvature.............................2D apparent flat..........................positive curvature.....

https://supernova.eso.org/exhibition/images/1120_curvature-1920/

, it occurs to me that all these shapes are contained in a toroid where the 2D positive curvature of the outer shell expands spacetime, appearing as a 2Dflat surface, then contracts the spacetime inside the 2D negative inner curvature.
Can there be a simpler manifold than that?

I go by the "law of necessity and sufficiency" which contains the concept that there is no "irreducible complexity" and at all times should satisfy Occam's razor, that the simplest property which is "sufficient" to fill an abstract "necessity", is usually the property that becomes expressed in nature. Perhaps naive but functional, if anything.

 

[river]

Whrite4U ;

, it occurs to me that all these shapes are contained in a toroid where the 2D positive curvature of the outer shell expands spacetime, appearing as a 2Dflat surface, then contracts the spacetime inside the 2D negative inner curvature.
Can there be a simpler manifold than that?

I go by the "law of necessity and sufficiency" which contains the concept that there is no "irreducible complexity" and at all times should satisfy Occam's razor, that the simplest property which is "sufficient" to fill an abstract "necessity", is usually the property that becomes expressed in nature. Perhaps naive but functional, if anything.

Occam's razor is not always applicable . In the Simple , is complexity . The simplest example I can give is Hydrogen . Simple in name but complex in understanding it .

 

[Write4U]

Whrite4U ;

Occam's razor is not always applicable . In the Simple , is complexity . The simplest example I can give is Hydrogen . Simple in name but complex in understanding it .

OK that is true but I believe you are making an illogical reverse comparison. i.e. In Complexity lies the simple. There is no "irreducible complexity", it always can be reduced into simpler elements.

The understanding comes with knowledge of the mathematics of affinity.

Affinity

A brief synonym for an affine transformation, defined as a non-degenerate linear substitution ; x~i=Aisxs+ai .

https://encyclopediaofmath.org/wiki/Affinity

 

[river]

OK that is true but I believe you are making a reverse comparison. i.e. In Complexity, lies the simple. There is no "irreducible complexity", it always consists of simpler elements.

Disagree

Simpler elements , when understood in depth , always have complexity as well . This is a truth .

 

[Write4U]

Disagree

Simpler elements , when understood in depth , always have complexity as well . This is a truth .

Of course they do, but it also suggests that they must be inherently mathematical objects. Else their physical properties (values) could not form regularly repeating patterns.

 

[river]

From post #1053

Write4U said: ↑

OK that is true but I believe you are making a reverse comparison. i.e. In Complexity, lies the simple. There is no "irreducible complexity", it always consists of simpler elements.

river said: ↑
Disagree

Simpler elements , when understood in depth , always have complexity as well . This is a truth .

Of course they do, but it also suggests that they must be inherently mathematical objects. Else their physical properties (values) could not form regularly repeating patterns.

The Periodic Table Exists because of the physical properties of theses physical objects ; because they are consistent .

 

[Write4U]

From post #1053
The Periodic Table Exists because of the physical properties of these physical objects ; because they are consistent .

Yes, but it is the mathematical consistency that humans have symbolized. I am not saying that the model exists in reality. I am saying that the mathematics which guide the forming of the physical objects have an a priori logical existence. It is an inherent organizational excellence of the 3D spacetime geometry.

The 3 spatial dimensions are abstract mathematical objects and determine the mathematics of all physical phenomena.
The temporal dimension of time is the mathematical record of duration of the physical phenomena.

 

[nebel]

the 2D positive curvature of the outer shell expands spacetime, appearing as a 2Dflat surface, then contracts the spacetime inside the 2D negative inner curvature.
Can there be a simpler manifold than that?

Yes there can, by dropping the toroid conjecture and just concentrating on the observed outer shell, that is the equivalent of the membrane #3 in the 'expanding into time model'.
The circulating donut is not a sharp razor, it introduces a speculative restriction on the understanding of the real universe.
here is a thought experience: We can receive only signals from 1/4 of the universe. our horizon is a radius of ~13 billion years out. Our part of the universe shows no collapsing portion, where, on the convoluted toroid would you put the 3 other horizons that are shown in these pictures?
post #680

from post #922

imagine the picture of the sky with one of these caps covering the contracting lobe of the donut universe. (each of these caps pictures the extend of our 13 billion year horizon)

 

[river]

Yes, but it is the mathematical consistency that humans have symbolized. I am not saying that the model exists in reality. I am saying that the mathematics which guide the forming of the physical objects have an a priori logical existence. It is an inherent organizational excellence of the 3D spacetime geometry.

The 3 spatial dimensions are abstract mathematical objects and determine the mathematics of all physical phenomena.
The temporal dimension of time is the mathematical record of duration of the physical phenomena.

Highlighted

Mathematics " guides " no thing nor things . In and of its self Mathematics has No Physical Properties at all . Hence has no possibility to guide any thing .

 

[Write4U]

where, on the convoluted toroid would you put the 3 other horizons that are shown in these pictures?

I would have a single horizon at the equator plus an event horizon at the BH entrance. At the WH exit there would not yet be life to make any observations.

 

[nebel]

I would have a single horizon at the equator plus an event horizon at the BH entrance. At the WH exit there would not yet be life to make any observations.

Only one of the 4 would represent what our data show for our observations, if centred on the equator. The ones that cover the areas over WH or BH would not match our observations. The expanding through time sphere has all 4 areas moved equally through time.
you could be right, in the 3 other observation areas, needed to cover the universe, observers there, scanning the panorama, could be perceiving totally different data, compared to what we see. (or have messages circulating that are not observed for lack of observers) Now,
Different from donut for example, or a sausage, , the expanding sphere model assumes, that all 4 sections moved through time at the same pace (regardless of shape).
Relativity has it, that the " 1/4 cup" covering the BH WH area would have moved little into the future #1. because of the great gravity/ mass 'time dilation' there.